After fiddling around with stats and builds and such:
It is possible to reach a TTK of 21-22s (on my mob dummy of choice, Ixsei giants). Pointzero -> Suffocate is the way.
You need to max out Psyche (250 assigned or 300 effective).
You need to max out Lifeforce and get Regen to as high as you can, because you'll be relying on passive healing and not on manual Nano Repair.
You also need to use Negation to counter wind-up attacks, and you must wait around 3s after the wind-up starts before negating (hopefully to sneak another Suffocate tick in).
You need to initiate Suffocate as soon as you get attacked/the suffocate channel gets disrupted.
Furthermore:
Another set-up for Suffocate bashing is to use Frenzy (Conqueror channel) to further bump up initial damage.
You will need to use Eyestrike for interrupt instead of Negation.
Putting up Frenzy will add another 3s to your overall set-up time, so this might be better only if the mobs you kill have high-enough health to warrant the extra initial 25% hits that Frenzy gives.
And finally, mobs that attack fast enough will ruin the Suffocate route. In that case, (and given that you already have the full Psyche build), use Pointzero -> Multistrike -> Freeze until dead (repair as needed) instead. This will, however, put your TTK back to the 30s range.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
You scared me, I was also a bit concerned how you got those numbers if you were using the other method. Secret op.
Also something for someone else to test, I think suffocate ignores the higher level penalty. And your damage with suffocate doesn't get reduced. Could be wrong but I'd have to go to ixi now in order to test and I don't wanna die.
Confirmed. It does ignore the higher level penalty.
One thing here, my tracking might be very very off and I might be messing up my GMCP scripts, but sometimes my xp tracker registers 0 xp from mobs I suffocate kill
Except it isn't. Did you actually read all the changes? Nanoseer just got buffed amazingly. Frenzy every 30s even while off balance? Speedup having a .40 cast time? Freeze and limbdrain doing amazing damage even without frenzy buff? This is so awesome.
How about playing the game and trying the new changes for more than 10 seconds before lamenting about how dreadful everything is? (By the way, it's not dreadful at all)
If you can use frenzy, use it, if not, don't. It's not even hard.
Fastest TTK seems to be the Traveller-Speedup route, and furthermore, it works with either a Techcraft build or a Psyche build.
Techcraft route is speedup -> multistrike -> freeze -> swarm, re-up freeze when it fades.
Psyche route is speedup -> pointzero -> freeze to death.
Obviously, repair and interrupt (eyestrike) as needed.
edit:
The Conqueror-Frenzy route is actually a bit faster on the TTK, but the 30s cooldown means it's unreliable (and then you'd have to switch back to the Traveller-Speedup route, anyway).
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
The updates comment tersely stated that Suffocate is still be usable in PvE, but I currently do not understand how to use it well anymore. While the damage with freeze stacks up is indeed nicer than freeze stacks alone, manipulating that + channeled + cooldown has thus far resulted in typically just 1 pulse of it going out in my attempts to use it.
That said, revised Frenzy + Freeze is loverly and if it came down to trading Suffocate for it I'll take the trade.
Just a quick theorycrafting, but vaguely mapping it out in excel with the CD on frenzy vs the swap CD it seems like you could rotate through Empyreals while bashing if you're hitting groups?
There's points where you can swap to Sunderer to stack the 5% nanite damage increase with Frenzy, while having time to get back to Conqueror before the next frenzy is available. Then rotating through Traveller if you want to maintain Speedup. (Working with the CDs of Frenzy 30s, Swap 20s, and Speedup ~110s)
Need to actually test it but it seems like you'd have frenzy up as much as possible, speedup with close to 100% up-time, and in the gaps where you're not doing something else you have the damage buff that should also buff every other Frenzy. (There's a point in this timeline where you get two in a row)
Sunderer would be a bit useless if you're on the Psyche build (going for the pure Freeze route), but yes, you can be Fancy and rotate a lot between the Empyreals to maximise the balance-free cooldowns.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
I wouldn't necessarily think it's that Fancy. It's just managing your oGCDs and stance dancing to create windows where you're at peak, which is pretty common in MMOs.
Swapping Sunderer when it wouldn't negatively affect you (i.e in windows between re-using frenzy and speed up) would be a DPS increase and not doing so would mean doing less damage overall.
You could go further and really Fancy potentially by making sure you align your attacks with the windows. Setting up delay, freeze, and multistrike around the window to do as much damage as possible when you move into it.
Speedup > Swap conqueror > delay swarm > multistrike > freeze > (offbal) frenzy | swap sunderer > swarm > swarm > swarm (this is just testing so waiting for the initial CDs to be ready so I can go straight into the sunderer window)
Sunderer, Freeze, and Frenzy are all up at the point that I start doing nanite damage. The main issue I hit was the sanity drain unfortunately, might be a way around that?
Yeah, I don't combo all the empyreals at once because of the sanity drain.
What I do is have Traveller/Speedup as my primary. I go on my merry way killing things, then move onto the next room.
If, when I move to the next room, speedup is still on cooldown, I then swap Conqueror/Frenzy and then peacefully kill things.
I then move on to the next room, and if by then speedup is on cooldown, I swap back to Traveller/Speedup.
I use the Psyche build (so no need to Sunderer for nanite damage), and Traveller/Speedup is primary because Speedup tends to last longer than Frenzy (and therefore, less intensive on the sanity). 1 minute (speedup) vs 15 seconds (frenzy).
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
I mean, I haven't found a use for Architect and Progenitor yet :P
Looks like sanity is enough to carry through to getting back to conqueror after refreshing speedup the first time. Could go Progenitor for the boosted sanity regen, then when swaps up efficiency | swap conqueror | frenzy?
NANO CHARGE -> CHANNEL ARCHITECT -> MINIATURISATION/PROTECT/INTERCEPT. They'll each use up less nanites than they normally would. 5.50M vs 4.40M used up.
Also, Invisibility is great to move past aggressive mobs (especially when you're indoors and can't use levitate). Excellent for quests!
Progenitor/Negation is wonderful for turtling. Repair -> Negation -> Negation -> Repair. And if you don't want to spend nanites to use Eyestrike, Negation is a great alternative, too (it'll eat the big hit).
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
Does anyone else have an issue where the forums eat a comment if you try and make a minor edit? Like it needs to be approved.
Anyway, I did some more number testing again, each test was done on the same mob and this is for those who don't want to, or cannot, swap between Emps.
Weapons (Near Identical Power)
-------------------------------< Used weapons >--------------------------------
Type ID Name Power Level Health
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
goggles 109024 a Vigilant 6-X goggles 7890 60 87%
gauntlet 112979 a Kinesics PTX-G-6a gauntlet 7953 60 89%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Route: Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm to death Result: Our target died in 20.69 seconds at 149.5 dps!
TL;DR - You shave a few seconds with MAX Techcraft, however I imagine a MAX Psyche and freeze route would be better if you're killing things a fair bit higher than yourself due to the way freeze damage keeps growing with the stacks now.
I'll run some numbers with Emp swapping and suffocate a little later.
NANO CHARGE -> CHANNEL ARCHITECT -> MINIATURISATION/PROTECT/INTERCEPT. They'll each use up less nanites than they normally would. 5.50M vs 4.40M used up.
Oh wow, I feel like an idiot for not doing this before. Thanks for the tip!
Regarding Intercept, is there really any need for it while bashing?
Regarding free Frenzy... I'm now on a diet of SPEEDUP > (swap and frenzy off cooldown and Sanity > 40%?) >SWAP CONQUEROR|FRENZY > etc... You may swap again > SWAP TRAVELLER. Easy.
There's some mobs that do a fair amount of SS damage with their attacks. Better to just bash an area and see what you're getting hit with the most, before turning intercept on.
Alright, Upon reaching level 75 and testing quite profusely. Here are my findings. (Specifically for 1v1)
Mind killpath is slower than any killpath of any other class. You cannot get them to 25% mind and 6 mental afflictions unless they are simply not attacking you. You will lose every fight you attempt to use this in.
Wetwiring killpath has the same problem as Mind, You are just too slow. You cant even target this subsystem directly and likely before you even got close the person you are fighting will have damaged you out, or just simply beat you in the subsys race.
Freeze killpath, suprisingly this is your best option You will either pressure them out with damage, or will shatter them with frozen stacks.
I will note 100% It is almost impossible to beat any class without the use of speedup. Honestly if you want to win against nanoseer and they use speedup just change rooms. if they chase you you win they dont have speedup, if they dont you win they lost their pressure on you.
by this point you are probably wondering why I have come to these conclusions.
1.) Mind afflictions for nano doing more subsys damage than other classes attacking is good. but when you put it against the pressure of other classes being able to outpace you bc they dont have to class heal and the fact that it takes 6 balances to actually stick an affliction (Not including if you delay) you lose the affliction buildup because you have to classheal.
Possible fix: (Not sure here tbh)
2.) If you were to try and go for a Wetwiring killpath we have no way to offensively build both mind and sensory at the same time to achieve this. If you drop a delayed confound, and then mindswap into a confound, then start focusing sensory. we have no way to tell what they cure. if they cure those mind affs and you miss even 1 tick of mindswap subsys damage you get pushed so far behind.
Possible fix: have envelop tell us what affs are cured. If not the exact aff, even just (Mind aff cured) or (Sensory aff cured) or even (Freeze cured)
3.) Freeze path I cant complain too much here. If you fight someone in speedup, you will outright beat them. Ofc the downside is that if you arent fighting in speedup you just kinda flop and do nothing.
Possible fix: make it not so reliant on speedup.
4.) sluggish, echoing, and distract will ultimately just slow you down as they require a balance, have a chance to be instantly cured and also do less subsys damage than just eyestrike/confound. Also for sluggish and distract your mindswap can and will swap these afflictions in and out as it pleases.
5.) rattle. good luck ever getting this. and if you do, likely their out of efficacy anyway or you arent on freezepath so you dont need to reduce their healing. but in group combat could be very good. 6.) for some reason we are the only class that has our class resources being a downside. we run out of nanites easily with even just a mediocre amount of buffs applied to us as well as our buffs can be stripped off. Our other resource that we have to use Sanity, if we use to frequently we drive ourselves into madness and kill ourselves. for those that dont know after the very small amount of buffs that are required just for combat (Including buffing in architect so we can get the most) you are reserving .5 off of half your total. or simple terms 45.5% of your amount. This is a huge crutch as each attack takes anywhere from 5-10%
TLDR: alot of our class feels like its hindering its self rather than helping or making itself reliant on certain aspects that are easily countered.
As always these are just my opinions and im glad to entertain those of others.
I'm not sure where you are getting 6 balances to stick 1 mental affliction from, at the absolute worst case scenario its 3 balances per affliction, 2 balances under speedup. Not considering delay at all.
Its probably not worth dropping speedup at the start of a fight if you're having issues being outdamaged, it boosts your opponents dps by 20% and doesn't effect your class heal cooldown. Dropping it once their mind system is below 25%, if they don't already have the mentals to mindmelt, seems like the best idea.
I'm honestly not quite sure where you're having issues with mindmelt, if anything the afflictions are the worst part and if someone is so intent on playing defensive constantly to keep themselves below the 2 extra afflictions needed, they're going to be suffering heavy feedback and you'll be able to breakdown soon. That seems like the biggest purpose of breakdown, its a backup that puts a timer on your foe if they decide to never push their own offense and continually avoid afflictions.
The 0.5% lower system damage on sluggish and distract is probably fine, they're extremely potent afflictions and losing half a percent of subsystem damage for the decent chance it will at least stick for a few balances (possibly a lot more) more then makes up for it.
You don't need it to stick for too long before it becomes theoretically worth it, not to mention the affliction requirements on the skills means you'll already have buffer afflictions on your target. Feels kind of like airshot for BEASTs, if the affliction is cured right away then its pretty much a wasted balance that does no damage, but most times you'll get it to stick long enough to make it worth it.
Freeze stuff - I kind of wish they'd swap the subsystem to muscular, increase the base shatter stacks, and apply a scaling reduction to the stacks with muscular damage. Ex 20 stacks to start, -2 per 10% muscular damage.
That gets the 'problem' of fast-stacking in groups to be less of an issue, and the method overall has a better and more versatile 1v1 long-term with the muscular focus and option for hitting ww subsys from both directions (albeit with less subsys damage than the pure mental route).
It'd also make it less of a pain to do a limbdrain instead of a confound if you're low on nanites (possible bugginess of the damaged limbs aside).
Then there could be an option for some freeze stack boosters elsewhere *cough nanotech* once it's got a mix of requirements aside from the sloooow stack with extra fading.
In your iteration you arent taking into account that as a nanoseer we have to use repair to heal after every 3 or so balances, where while we are pushing for afflictions, yes we are doing more subsys damage but they dont ever have to spend a blance to classheal.
balance time, confound#/H=Heal (This isnt assuming that you are using mindswap for maximum value) 3,1-6,2-9,3-12,H-15,4-18,5-21,6-24,H
time, current affliction count (time starts at 3 bc thats when the first aff is applied as well as healed) 3,0-6,1-8,0-9,1-12,1-13,0-15,1-18,0-21,0-23,0
At 18s your balances line back up and you never actually apply any afflictions. This is assuming that you only confound and Heal ofc. If you toss mindswap in you -1 more aff every time that you activate mindswap rather than using confound. If you delay a confound to start, you bring it up to 2 and can keep 1 on constantly just by confound/healing. but if you throw in mindswap you lose that 1. This is how we are so reliant on speedup.
That being said there are things we can do that help with this problem, The best ordering to start a fight that I have found is, delay confound, roomdrain, mindswap, confound. roomdrain has the possibility to net you a few extra affs if their system decides to heal freeze instead of a mind aff. but does nothing if it decides to heal mind aff anyway.
Comments
- It is possible to reach a TTK of 21-22s (on my mob dummy of choice, Ixsei giants). Pointzero -> Suffocate is the way.
- You need to max out Psyche (250 assigned or 300 effective).
- You need to max out Lifeforce and get Regen to as high as you can, because you'll be relying on passive healing and not on manual Nano Repair.
- You also need to use Negation to counter wind-up attacks, and you must wait around 3s after the wind-up starts before negating (hopefully to sneak another Suffocate tick in).
- You need to initiate Suffocate as soon as you get attacked/the suffocate channel gets disrupted.
Furthermore:- Another set-up for Suffocate bashing is to use Frenzy (Conqueror channel) to further bump up initial damage.
- You will need to use Eyestrike for interrupt instead of Negation.
- Putting up Frenzy will add another 3s to your overall set-up time, so this might be better only if the mobs you kill have high-enough health to warrant the extra initial 25% hits that Frenzy gives.
And finally, mobs that attack fast enough will ruin the Suffocate route. In that case, (and given that you already have the full Psyche build), use Pointzero -> Multistrike -> Freeze until dead (repair as needed) instead. This will, however, put your TTK back to the 30s range.- Ilyos (August 2019)
- Ilyos (August 2019)
If you can use frenzy, use it, if not, don't. It's not even hard.
I honestly never liked bashing with channels so suffocate change is meaningless to me.
Fastest TTK seems to be the Traveller-Speedup route, and furthermore, it works with either a Techcraft build or a Psyche build.
Techcraft route is speedup -> multistrike -> freeze -> swarm, re-up freeze when it fades.
Psyche route is speedup -> pointzero -> freeze to death.
Obviously, repair and interrupt (eyestrike) as needed.
edit:
The Conqueror-Frenzy route is actually a bit faster on the TTK, but the 30s cooldown means it's unreliable (and then you'd have to switch back to the Traveller-Speedup route, anyway).
- Ilyos (August 2019)
That said, revised Frenzy + Freeze is loverly and if it came down to trading Suffocate for it I'll take the trade.
. I suggest going the 'regular' on-balance routes according to my post above yours.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
There's points where you can swap to Sunderer to stack the 5% nanite damage increase with Frenzy, while having time to get back to Conqueror before the next frenzy is available. Then rotating through Traveller if you want to maintain Speedup.
(Working with the CDs of Frenzy 30s, Swap 20s, and Speedup ~110s)
Need to actually test it but it seems like you'd have frenzy up as much as possible, speedup with close to 100% up-time, and in the gaps where you're not doing something else you have the damage buff that should also buff every other Frenzy. (There's a point in this timeline where you get two in a row)
- Ilyos (August 2019)
Swapping Sunderer when it wouldn't negatively affect you (i.e in windows between re-using frenzy and speed up) would be a DPS increase and not doing so would mean doing less damage overall.
You could go further and really Fancy potentially by making sure you align your attacks with the windows. Setting up delay, freeze, and multistrike around the window to do as much damage as possible when you move into it.
Speedup > Swap conqueror > delay swarm > multistrike > freeze > (offbal) frenzy | swap sunderer > swarm > swarm > swarm (this is just testing so waiting for the initial CDs to be ready so I can go straight into the sunderer window)
Sunderer, Freeze, and Frenzy are all up at the point that I start doing nanite damage. The main issue I hit was the sanity drain unfortunately, might be a way around that?
What I do is have Traveller/Speedup as my primary. I go on my merry way killing things, then move onto the next room.
If, when I move to the next room, speedup is still on cooldown, I then swap Conqueror/Frenzy and then peacefully kill things.
I then move on to the next room, and if by then speedup is on cooldown, I swap back to Traveller/Speedup.
I use the Psyche build (so no need to Sunderer for nanite damage), and Traveller/Speedup is primary because Speedup tends to last longer than Frenzy (and therefore, less intensive on the sanity). 1 minute (speedup) vs 15 seconds (frenzy).
- Ilyos (August 2019)
Looks like sanity is enough to carry through to getting back to conqueror after refreshing speedup the first time.
Could go Progenitor for the boosted sanity regen, then when swaps up efficiency | swap conqueror | frenzy?
Also, Invisibility is great to move past aggressive mobs (especially when you're indoors and can't use levitate). Excellent for quests!
Progenitor/Negation is wonderful for turtling. Repair -> Negation -> Negation -> Repair. And if you don't want to spend nanites to use Eyestrike, Negation is a great alternative, too (it'll eat the big hit).
- Ilyos (August 2019)
Anyway, I did some more number testing again, each test was done on the same mob and this is for those who don't want to, or cannot, swap between Emps.
Weapons (Near Identical Power)
Stats Spread
Route: Speedup / Point Zero / Multi / Freeze to death / NO HEALING
Result: Our target died in 23.46 seconds at 134.9 dps!
Route: Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm to death / NO HEALING
Result: Our target died in 21.08 seconds at 143.2 dps!
Stats MAX Psyche
Route: Speedup / Void Zero / Freeze to death / NO HEALING
Result: Our target died in 20.02 seconds at 143.0 dps!
Stats MAX Techcraft
Route: Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm to death
Result: Our target died in 20.69 seconds at 149.5 dps!
TL;DR - You shave a few seconds with MAX Techcraft, however I imagine a MAX Psyche and freeze route would be better if you're killing things a fair bit higher than yourself due to the way freeze damage keeps growing with the stacks now.
I'll run some numbers with Emp swapping and suffocate a little later.
Mind killpath is slower than any killpath of any other class. You cannot get them to 25% mind and 6 mental afflictions unless they are simply not attacking you. You will lose every fight you attempt to use this in.
Wetwiring killpath has the same problem as Mind, You are just too slow. You cant even target this subsystem directly and likely before you even got close the person you are fighting will have damaged you out, or just simply beat you in the subsys race.
Freeze killpath, suprisingly this is your best option You will either pressure them out with damage, or will shatter them with frozen stacks.
I will note 100% It is almost impossible to beat any class without the use of speedup. Honestly if you want to win against nanoseer and they use speedup just change rooms. if they chase you you win they dont have speedup, if they dont you win they lost their pressure on you.
by this point you are probably wondering why I have come to these conclusions.
1.) Mind afflictions for nano doing more subsys damage than other classes attacking is good. but when you put it against the pressure of other classes being able to outpace you bc they dont have to class heal and the fact that it takes 6 balances to actually stick an affliction (Not including if you delay) you lose the affliction buildup because you have to classheal.
Possible fix: (Not sure here tbh)
2.) If you were to try and go for a Wetwiring killpath we have no way to offensively build both mind and sensory at the same time to achieve this. If you drop a delayed confound, and then mindswap into a confound, then start focusing sensory. we have no way to tell what they cure. if they cure those mind affs and you miss even 1 tick of mindswap subsys damage you get pushed so far behind.
Possible fix: have envelop tell us what affs are cured. If not the exact aff, even just (Mind aff cured) or (Sensory aff cured) or even (Freeze cured)
3.) Freeze path I cant complain too much here. If you fight someone in speedup, you will outright beat them. Ofc the downside is that if you arent fighting in speedup you just kinda flop and do nothing.
Possible fix: make it not so reliant on speedup.
4.) sluggish, echoing, and distract will ultimately just slow you down as they require a balance, have a chance to be instantly cured and also do less subsys damage than just eyestrike/confound. Also for sluggish and distract your mindswap can and will swap these afflictions in and out as it pleases.
5.) rattle. good luck ever getting this. and if you do, likely their out of efficacy anyway or you arent on freezepath so you dont need to reduce their healing. but in group combat could be very good.
6.) for some reason we are the only class that has our class resources being a downside. we run out of nanites easily with even just a mediocre amount of buffs applied to us as well as our buffs can be stripped off. Our other resource that we have to use Sanity, if we use to frequently we drive ourselves into madness and kill ourselves. for those that dont know after the very small amount of buffs that are required just for combat (Including buffing in architect so we can get the most) you are reserving .5 off of half your total. or simple terms 45.5% of your amount. This is a huge crutch as each attack takes anywhere from 5-10%
TLDR: alot of our class feels like its hindering its self rather than helping or making itself reliant on certain aspects that are easily countered.
As always these are just my opinions and im glad to entertain those of others.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
0.0 Confound
0.0 WW Cured
3.0 Confound
5.0 WW Cured
6.0 Confound
Affliction Stuck.
0.0 Confound
0.0 WW Cured
2.4 Confound
Affliction stuck.
Its probably not worth dropping speedup at the start of a fight if you're having issues being outdamaged, it boosts your opponents dps by 20% and doesn't effect your class heal cooldown. Dropping it once their mind system is below 25%, if they don't already have the mentals to mindmelt, seems like the best idea.
I'm honestly not quite sure where you're having issues with mindmelt, if anything the afflictions are the worst part and if someone is so intent on playing defensive constantly to keep themselves below the 2 extra afflictions needed, they're going to be suffering heavy feedback and you'll be able to breakdown soon. That seems like the biggest purpose of breakdown, its a backup that puts a timer on your foe if they decide to never push their own offense and continually avoid afflictions.
The 0.5% lower system damage on sluggish and distract is probably fine, they're extremely potent afflictions and losing half a percent of subsystem damage for the decent chance it will at least stick for a few balances (possibly a lot more) more then makes up for it.
You don't need it to stick for too long before it becomes theoretically worth it, not to mention the affliction requirements on the skills means you'll already have buffer afflictions on your target. Feels kind of like airshot for BEASTs, if the affliction is cured right away then its pretty much a wasted balance that does no damage, but most times you'll get it to stick long enough to make it worth it.
That gets the 'problem' of fast-stacking in groups to be less of an issue, and the method overall has a better and more versatile 1v1 long-term with the muscular focus and option for hitting ww subsys from both directions (albeit with less subsys damage than the pure mental route).
It'd also make it less of a pain to do a limbdrain instead of a confound if you're low on nanites (possible bugginess of the damaged limbs aside).
Then there could be an option for some freeze stack boosters elsewhere *cough nanotech* once it's got a mix of requirements aside from the sloooow stack with extra fading.
3,1-6,2-9,3-12,H-15,4-18,5-21,6-24,H
time, current affliction count (time starts at 3 bc thats when the first aff is applied as well as healed)
3,0-6,1-8,0-9,1-12,1-13,0-15,1-18,0-21,0-23,0
At 18s your balances line back up and you never actually apply any afflictions. This is assuming that you only confound and Heal ofc. If you toss mindswap in you -1 more aff every time that you activate mindswap rather than using confound. If you delay a confound to start, you bring it up to 2 and can keep 1 on constantly just by confound/healing. but if you throw in mindswap you lose that 1. This is how we are so reliant on speedup.