Strictly in PvE I was able to have that creature in the pastebin within one tick of breakdown by time time the first mindswap wore off, using only mental afflictions. And 8 afflictions for the Mindmelt Insta too.
Make the instas do damage on mobs versus actually instakill so they're a viable path but not imbalanced.
Make the instas do damage on mobs versus actually instakill so they're a viable path but not imbalanced.
Then you're either back to square one, or they just spam the insta till it dies. The idea is to make Nano take around the same amount of balances as other classes to kill denizens by subsys damage so that you dont have to make nano damage so strong.
Make the instas do damage on mobs versus actually instakill so they're a viable path but not imbalanced.
Then you're either back to square one, or they just spam the insta till it dies. The idea is to make Nano take around the same amount of balances as other classes to kill denizens by subsys damage so that you dont have to make nano damage so strong.
How is it square one if the affliction plus insta kill spam TTK equates to other classes TTK?
I think the biggest fear of making instakills viable is that it introduces a flat time to kill without considering mob health. That might be fine now, but could cause issues down the road if they release stronger, tankier denizens. Or even honor mobs. The solution then would be to make those mobs resistant to subsystem damage and bam we're back to this problem again.
My opinion would be that engineers take first, scoundrels take second, fury third, beast fourth, and nano last. On the stipulation of including our buff-up period before every single encounter.
I feel like engineer's damage is higher due to being able to put stim on auto.
from relevant information that Tecton said which I can only assume doesn't include bufftimes my guess would be its actually engineer, nano, scoundrel, fury, beast. I honestly think beast lost a crazy amount of PvE damage with the amount of nerfs they have recieved so far and that people will keep beating the class further down because they were the first to be "OP"
This is obviously just my opinion from what I have seen and I have only ever played a nanoseer. Although I did setup my mothers system and she is an engineer.
Im actually unsure of which has better TTK between a fury and a beast tbh though so my opinion on those two is very uncertain.
I heard someone mention Scoundrels and instakills, so I wanted to chip in.
Going for straight damage, with at level gear in an at level zone, I can kill about 2-3 seconds faster than chasing my instakill in the most optimal fashion. The benefit is that I take less damage overall (health and subsystem), and so there's in general a little less downtime (I don't need to stop to mend/regen as often).
Concerning pvp wetwiring system damage, I noticed it too while gathering the numbers for subsystem effects, where, for no obvious reason the damage will suddenly cascade hard, reducing every system to nothing in a few seconds. While I know that having higher levels of damage (catatonia123, delirum123 etc) escalate the speed and later the damage that bleeds into wetwiring, there doesn't seem to be any explanation that I've yet noticed for why this apparently random effect happens other than a bug.
And, to bring things back to hunting... creatures outside your might can resist afflictions and honestly, even making just mindmelt a viable way to defeat them will still probably only be evening things up with other classes that can hunt faster. Besides (and this is very important) it's thematically awesome!
Yes they can resist the afflictions, but not the subsystem damage. It always does a fixed amount which is 4x the amount a player would take. Which I believe is why WW cascades so fast. They take 4x the amount of wetwiring damage from cascading that a player would take . Also when they hit 50% WW they get Shortcircut which gives more ww damage over time which is increased by 4x aswell. I would absoloutely love for us to be able to bash with afflictions. It would 100% make it take a fixed amount of balances per kill though.
Here's a couple more test strategies for Nanoseer bashing.
Pointzero -> Freeze (using Negation as interrupt). Stat build is full Lifeforce and Regen, then 110 Psyche. TTK is a surprising 33s including the pointzero prep. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/G5tYe538
Another Pointzero -> Freeze setup, but this time Eyestrike is the interrupt and Frenzy is prepped. TTK of 39s. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4ysXsa_4 Negation seems to be the big winner in the negation vs eyestrike debate.
It's a bit shady, but you can delay confound, mindswap, confound x2, distract, sluggish, then minddrain 3 times. This drops their mind to 0, and damages their sensory and WW with feedback. Against most mobs you can crash out and start on another target, and takes 30s worth of balance, but the death itself is delayed. Still slow compared to other classes but it seems to be faster than damage
Ok, so I dropped in a stopwatch this morning and ran a few tests. Beginning from the "standard" bashing cycle of: multistrike, freeze, freeze, swarm til dead. I tested against fairly easy targets, as I was swapping back and forth from the spreadsheet, and having to crash or levitate out of combat would skew the numbers anyway.
With that and using frenzy average DPS for level 30 with level appropriate gear: 81.79. Adding negation, it drops to: 50.17. (I didn't need it up here, but if it was necessary that's what it costs with the increased prep time). Adding pointzero with the negation its: 53.76. The increase from adding pointzero is really not worth it with this cycle, less than 7% or not even 4DPS. (Note: this assumes you are putting it up for each mob, the increase will be larger if you have multiple targets you can kill before it fades.)
Throwing out the standard cycle, and just using multistrike + freeze with frenzy active yields: 62.57 and adding pointzero to that is: 70.35. Adding pointzero if you are doing nothing but freezing is an increase of 11% or almost 8DPS. (Note: this assumes you are putting it up for each mob, the increase will be larger if you have multiple targets you can kill before it fades.)
Now, this was not the most extensive test as I only ran it about 5 times each way and the rng pushes the numbers around a bit. My takeaway though: pointzero is not enough of a boost to be worth the time invested in using it, and negation is only worth using if you know you will be needing it to avoid having to crash out.
My feeling on this is the same as it was before the changes- with all the work we do, we should be able to hit harder. Using all the skills should have a more noticeable benefit. Pointzero should really make freeze hit harder, and that damage should carry over to multistrike and swarm more. As it is without tracking the numbers you'd never know it was doing anything at all.
Yea, I was hoping that last pass on Nanoseer would make PvE noticeably better but, at this point... I'm out of free class changes because I jumped around a lot initially, yet I'm still thinking of dropping it. I want to like Nanoseer, because thematically I do, but using an 'interesting' rotation is still leagues behind Engineer in efficiency. The 50% lesson cost is gonna be awful if I do it, but I'm starting to lose hope for significant improvement.
on the flip side, You discern that the nanites have delivered Encroachment, bringing the mind affliction total to 1. <= this is nice, we don't need to waste as much time analyzing. Mindmelt is still broken though. If you can mindmelt, you've been able to breakdown for a while. Makes the kill route entirely pointless.
Envelop takes 1.5s, Speedup is now .4s
the change to swap is awesome. With the limited queue this was a pretty good change.
Here's a couple more test strategies for Nanoseer bashing.
Pointzero -> Freeze (using Negation as interrupt). Stat build is full Lifeforce and Regen, then 110 Psyche. TTK is a surprising 33s including the pointzero prep. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/G5tYe538
Another Pointzero -> Freeze setup, but this time Eyestrike is the interrupt and Frenzy is prepped. TTK of 39s. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4ysXsa_4 Negation seems to be the big winner in the negation vs eyestrike debate.
Looked up what you were doing, seems you had a level 50 weapon at level 63 and no points invested in the affecting stat - that's going to skew results a lot.
Anyway - we're checking the DPS and time-to-kill numbers continuously (real numbers from player activity, not theorycrafting), and right now Nanoseer PvE is roughly on par with most other classes. The before-fight preps were adding some extra time, the latest changes should hopefully address that - if not, we'll tweak further.
Here's a couple more test strategies for Nanoseer bashing.
Pointzero -> Freeze (using Negation as interrupt). Stat build is full Lifeforce and Regen, then 110 Psyche. TTK is a surprising 33s including the pointzero prep. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/G5tYe538
Another Pointzero -> Freeze setup, but this time Eyestrike is the interrupt and Frenzy is prepped. TTK of 39s. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4ysXsa_4 Negation seems to be the big winner in the negation vs eyestrike debate.
Looked up what you were doing, seems you had a level 50 weapon at level 63 and no points invested in the affecting stat - that's going to skew results a lot.
Anyway - we're checking the DPS and time-to-kill numbers continuously (real numbers from player activity, not theorycrafting), and right now Nanoseer PvE is roughly on par with most other classes. The before-fight preps were adding some extra time, the latest changes should hopefully address that - if not, we'll tweak further.
Uhm...false.
Type ID Name Power Level Health
gauntlet 80504 a Champleve 1.0 gauntlet 8945 72 87%
goggles 74367 a Tenebroso 1.0 goggles 8630 72 89%
And I had 110 points invested in Psyche, unless that's not what affects freeze? HELP STATS says it affects kith abilities.
edit: I don't even have a Level 50 weapon anywhere on me right now. I haven't had one for a few days.
Freeze seemed to up limbdrain damage, which I wasn't expecting? The aff info says +thermal so shrug.emoji.
I don't like roomdrain serving as the bumper for freeze stacks, even with the 20s room cd. I would much rather a conditional increase to freeze, a Freeze-over-Time, and/or a second targeted skill with a conditional usage. Something like that instead of an AoE with cooldown.
I kinda wish frenzy was time-based. Multistrike eats up a couple hits of it, so speedup being fixed means I am probably taking it out of rotation to save the % boost for bigger hits.
Just some quick tests I did. Each test was against the same mob, full health and WW. I'm lv 60 with all 60 gear.
Solo Bashing:
Slowdown / Void Zero / Suffocate / 75% Heal = Our target died in 142.26 seconds at 51.1 dps! Slowdown / Void Zero / Suffocate / NO HEALING = Our target died in 33.79 seconds at 111.0 dps! Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm / 75% Heal = Our target died in 28.45 seconds at 112.1 dps!
For group bashing, however:
Speedup / Void Zero / Suffocate / 75% Heal = Our target died in 15.78 seconds at 150.0 dps!
Having a partner on speed means they hit more frequently and they take the hits that would otherwise interrupt your suffocate.
TL;DR - Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm till dead (Freeze again if necessary) = Best way to solo bash in my opinion. Similar damage and more survivability. In duo / group? Suffocate takes the cake.
Just some quick tests I did. Each test was against the same mob, full health and WW. I'm lv 60 with all 60 gear.
Solo Bashing:
Slowdown / Void Zero / Suffocate / 75% Heal = Our target died in 142.26 seconds at 51.1 dps! Slowdown / Void Zero / Suffocate / NO HEALING = Our target died in 33.79 seconds at 111.0 dps! Speedup / Freeze / Multi / Swarm / 75% Heal = Our target died in 28.45 seconds at 112.1 dps!
For group bashing, however:
Speedup / Void Zero / Suffocate / 75% Heal = Our target died in 15.78 seconds at 150.0 dps!
Having a partner on speed means they hit more frequently and they take the hits that would otherwise interrupt your suffocate.
TL;DR - Speedup / Freeze / Multi / Swarm / Freeze / Swarm = Best way to solo bash in my opinion. Similar damage and more survivability. In duo / group? Suffocate takes the cake.
Why are you using freeze before multi, you can multi then freeze and the first multi won't hit or pull aggro till the freeze hits. Also allows a second swarm before you have to freeze again. So you get two amped freezes and all three ticks of multi amped.
You scared me, I was also a bit concerned how you got those numbers if you were using the other method. Secret op.
Also something for someone else to test, I think suffocate ignores the higher level penalty. And your damage with suffocate doesn't get reduced. Could be wrong but I'd have to go to ixi now in order to test and I don't wanna die.
Comments
The idea is to make Nano take around the same amount of balances as other classes to kill denizens by subsys damage so that you dont have to make nano damage so strong.
I feel like engineer's damage is higher due to being able to put stim on auto.
from relevant information that Tecton said which I can only assume doesn't include bufftimes my guess would be its actually
engineer, nano, scoundrel, fury, beast.
I honestly think beast lost a crazy amount of PvE damage with the amount of nerfs they have recieved so far and that people will keep beating the class further down because they were the first to be "OP"
This is obviously just my opinion from what I have seen and I have only ever played a nanoseer. Although I did setup my mothers system and she is an engineer.
Im actually unsure of which has better TTK between a fury and a beast tbh though so my opinion on those two is very uncertain.
Going for straight damage, with at level gear in an at level zone, I can kill about 2-3 seconds faster than chasing my instakill in the most optimal fashion. The benefit is that I take less damage overall (health and subsystem), and so there's in general a little less downtime (I don't need to stop to mend/regen as often).
And, to bring things back to hunting... creatures outside your might can resist afflictions and honestly, even making just mindmelt a viable way to defeat them will still probably only be evening things up with other classes that can hunt faster. Besides (and this is very important) it's thematically awesome!
Pointzero -> Freeze (using Negation as interrupt). Stat build is full Lifeforce and Regen, then 110 Psyche. TTK is a surprising 33s including the pointzero prep.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/G5tYe538
Another Pointzero -> Freeze setup, but this time Eyestrike is the interrupt and Frenzy is prepped. TTK of 39s.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4ysXsa_4
Negation seems to be the big winner in the negation vs eyestrike debate.
Trying out Pointzero -> Multistrike -> Freeze. Same stat setup. TTK at 39.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jKt3RoAa
* My trigger fired up eyestrike before I could manual negation
All still pale in comparison to other classes.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
Edit: It doesn't! At least, a single hit does, but the stacking damage of freeze really wins out.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/hVSBxPIi
I tested against fairly easy targets, as I was swapping back and forth from the spreadsheet, and having to crash or levitate out of combat would skew the numbers anyway.
With that and using frenzy average DPS for level 30 with level appropriate gear: 81.79.
Adding negation, it drops to: 50.17. (I didn't need it up here, but if it was necessary that's what it costs with the increased prep time).
Adding pointzero with the negation its: 53.76. The increase from adding pointzero is really not worth it with this cycle, less than 7% or not even 4DPS. (Note: this assumes you are putting it up for each mob, the increase will be larger if you have multiple targets you can kill before it fades.)
Throwing out the standard cycle, and just using multistrike + freeze with frenzy active yields: 62.57
and adding pointzero to that is: 70.35. Adding pointzero if you are doing nothing but freezing is an increase of 11% or almost 8DPS. (Note: this assumes you are putting it up for each mob, the increase will be larger if you have multiple targets you can kill before it fades.)
Now, this was not the most extensive test as I only ran it about 5 times each way and the rng pushes the numbers around a bit. My takeaway though: pointzero is not enough of a boost to be worth the time invested in using it, and negation is only worth using if you know you will be needing it to avoid having to crash out.
My feeling on this is the same as it was before the changes- with all the work we do, we should be able to hit harder. Using all the skills should have a more noticeable benefit. Pointzero should really make freeze hit harder, and that damage should carry over to multistrike and swarm more. As it is without tracking the numbers you'd never know it was doing anything at all.
spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qibtbh8KtQ8vvkr2vjGTH2gwLsWw_CfJtTJx51Edp4w/edit?usp=sharing
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/jo0CQsYf
Mindmelt is still broken though. If you can mindmelt, you've been able to breakdown for a while. Makes the kill route entirely pointless.
Envelop takes 1.5s,
Speedup is now .4s
the change to swap is awesome. With the limited queue this was a pretty good change.
Suffocate + pointzero is again about 10% greater than without(see note above). Suffocate DPS beats everything else by a wide margin.
Type ID Name Power Level Health
And I had 110 points invested in Psyche, unless that's not what affects freeze? HELP STATS says it affects kith abilities.
edit: I don't even have a Level 50 weapon anywhere on me right now. I haven't had one for a few days.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/LnL0n_T7
edit2: I also haven't been level 63 in a few days. I was level 74 during those tests. You can HONOURS me and check rankings (or check out https://www.starmourn.com//api/characters//mereas.json).
- Ilyos (August 2019)
I don't like roomdrain serving as the bumper for freeze stacks, even with the 20s room cd. I would much rather a conditional increase to freeze, a Freeze-over-Time, and/or a second targeted skill with a conditional usage. Something like that instead of an AoE with cooldown.
I kinda wish frenzy was time-based. Multistrike eats up a couple hits of it, so speedup being fixed means I am probably taking it out of rotation to save the % boost for bigger hits.
Solo Bashing:
Slowdown / Void Zero / Suffocate / 75% Heal = Our target died in 142.26 seconds at 51.1 dps!
Slowdown / Void Zero / Suffocate / NO HEALING = Our target died in 33.79 seconds at 111.0 dps!
Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm / 75% Heal = Our target died in 28.45 seconds at 112.1 dps!
For group bashing, however:
Speedup / Void Zero / Suffocate / 75% Heal = Our target died in 15.78 seconds at 150.0 dps!
Having a partner on speed means they hit more frequently and they take the hits that would otherwise interrupt your suffocate.
TL;DR - Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm till dead (Freeze again if necessary) = Best way to solo bash in my opinion. Similar damage and more survivability.
In duo / group? Suffocate takes the cake.