You do know you can download one of these systems too, right?
Gaming isn't, and shouldn't be, about how much of an unpleasant thing you can put up with. It's meant to be enjoyable, so if you have a tool available to you that can make something more enjoyable, it makes sense that people are going to use it.
Gaming is about accomplishing goals using skill and ability built up through the grind of practice. It is telling of a society filled with participation trophies that you want to skip the shitty parts straight to the reward.
I know I will catch flak for this opinion, still give no shits about the personal attacks on my intelligence. Not going to return fire.
I will say that touting your place at max level idle tapping seems a bit weak to me. Yes, I feel it is more of an accomplishment to have tapped multiple keys per kill. I also feel it js an unfair advantage to use those systems but I accept that they are allowed.
What always surprises me is how the general consensus seems to be because levels matter and bashing is (typically) considered tedious, it is okay for players to automate it because they don't want to deal with the "grind". If we allow coding and scripts to marginalize a large portion of the game, why not just get rid of levels and have all characters start at max level? That was sarcasm, but that's more or less how I view the use of automated systems, regardless of the debate on just HOW automated counts as automated.
The grinding is a part of the game that keeps players engaged. If levels weren't a thing, that would be one less thing to keep players around and active. I'm not saying it's the only thing to do, but it's a big one. Automation serves the same purpose as removing level based bashing, it allows a player to not focus on the game while accomplishing a goal - thereby that player is not actually engaged in the game.
@ekary you get an awesome reaction because there's no LOL. Also I alias every hit. It's not fun. Eventually I'll stop being lazy and work out the bashing system available and make sure my aliases and triggers don't interfere.
I don't like grinding in other IRE games because you repeat one attack (except for Achaea where you use battlerage occasionally). That's why I love Starmourn grind (and Nanoseer especially) - I'm using 4+ different attacks each mob. If I was gonna automate that I'd just go play a Diku MUD where I mindlessly type kill <thing> because at that point it's functionally identical.
I think this is a fantastic point. If the bashing was more interactive and varied players would be less likely to fall into the "but I don't want to just press one button 10,000 times; it's boring so I'm scripting it"
This is barely automation from what I've done in other muds. Anyone ever played Federation? I automated that game to the point where I'd only check on it once every few days. It was really fun building that system. Also it wasn't against the rules there, good times.
Some of the fun of IRE games or muds in general for me is to see what kind of awesome stuff you can do with all the cool scripts and triggers and aliases and stuff.
This is barely automation from what I've done in other muds. Anyone ever played Federation? I automated that game to the point where I'd only check on it once every few days. It was really fun building that system. Also it wasn't against the rules there, good times.
Some of the fun of IRE games or muds in general for me is to see what kind of awesome stuff you can do with all the cool scripts and triggers and aliases and stuff.
You do know you can download one of these systems too, right?
Gaming isn't, and shouldn't be, about how much of an unpleasant thing you can put up with. It's meant to be enjoyable, so if you have a tool available to you that can make something more enjoyable, it makes sense that people are going to use it.
Gaming is about accomplishing goals using skill and ability built up through the grind of practice. It is telling of a society filled with participation trophies that you want to skip the shitty parts straight to the reward.
I know I will catch flak for this opinion, still give no shits about the personal attacks on my intelligence. Not going to return fire.
I will say that touting your place at max level idle tapping seems a bit weak to me. Yes, I feel it is more of an accomplishment to have tapped multiple keys per kill. I also feel it js an unfair advantage to use those systems but I accept that they are allowed.
Aaaand there comes the baby boomer bullshit. Are you really claiming a moral high ground based on your ability to press a button on the keyboard over and over again?
Editing to add: On a more serious note, the core of the issue here is two fundamentally different opinions about what games are/should be, and what makes gaming enjoyable. It's my opinion that games are meant to be fun, not a test of endurance meant to mimic the idea of "hard work" (because let's not kid ourselves, there's no model of the universe where killing pretend monsters on a game constitutes actual "work"). I do plenty of work at work. When I'm playing a game, that's the last thing I want to do.
I think it's a mistake to write of bashing as "the shitty part" of the game, when tools like auto-queuing can actually make it kind of fun. When I have my attacks set to go at a regular interval, allowing me to choose when I want to heal or use hindering abilities instead, bashing isn't some shitty thing to endure, it's actually entertaining - which to me, is the point of a game.
You will get smooshed by higher levels in just about any game. If automate to this level the grand majority of mmos out there, you would be ip banned.
Examples? I know of addons for three of the biggest MMOs that give you a compass to follow (just like how I have to move in SM) then automate flight paths or whatever the quicktravel method is in each respective game. These are popular add ons that thousands of players use and the admin know fully well exist and don't bother stopping. Server-side aliasing allows for single button kills...so please, tell me, where is "this level of automation" going to get me IP banned?
Hey if I knew how to code or even enjoyed it I'd create a bashing system for BEAST so I could do what you guys are doing. Currently I'm using the F1 through F12 keys to automate my bashing.
You do know you can download one of these systems too, right?
Gaming isn't, and shouldn't be, about how much of an unpleasant thing you can put up with. It's meant to be enjoyable, so if you have a tool available to you that can make something more enjoyable, it makes sense that people are going to use it.
Gaming is about accomplishing goals using skill and ability built up through the grind of practice. It is telling of a society filled with participation trophies that you want to skip the shitty parts straight to the reward.
I know I will catch flak for this opinion, still give no shits about the personal attacks on my intelligence. Not going to return fire.
I will say that touting your place at max level idle tapping seems a bit weak to me. Yes, I feel it is more of an accomplishment to have tapped multiple keys per kill. I also feel it js an unfair advantage to use those systems but I accept that they are allowed.
Aaaand there comes the baby boomer bullshit. Are you really claiming a moral high ground based on your ability to press a button on the keyboard over and over again?
How is this any different than WoW or Overwatch or any number of other games? You press buttons over and over to accomplish a goal in all of those. I admire the skill that comes from the hours of practice the best in the world have to go through. I am allowed to do so here.
Just because you can make something easier doesn't mean for a second that you haven't lost something in the process.
Listen, this is my opinion. Dismissing it is your right but you just make yourself look ugly when you attack an entire generation that had to work hard, however misguided they may have been in doing so.
Personally, I feel if you are even using an alias and not hand typing out the full syntax then you're pretending to mud. Also, using things like chat windows, highlights and maps. If it isn't eye strain and graph paper then you're only cheating yourself and are not a true gamer. < /sarcasm>
You will get smooshed by higher levels in just about any game. If automate to this level the grand majority of mmos out there, you would be ip banned.
Examples? I know of addons for three of the biggest MMOs that give you a compass to follow (just like how I have to move in SM) then automate flight paths or whatever the quicktravel method is in each respective game. These are popular add ons that thousands of players use and the admin know fully well exist and don't bother stopping. Server-side aliasing allows for single button kills...so please, tell me, where is "this level of automation" going to get me IP banned?
I probably shot my mouth off there then. Still not going to convince me that just because it is a pain in the ass for admin in a game to regulate automation, that it somehow justifies it or doesn't somehow hurt the economy in game.
Hey, I will even admit that the coding (specifically for bashing) that you all do is impressive but I still think that long term it hurts the game as a whole more than helps it.
And this is where I bow out. Thanks for the debate, twas fun.
You do know you can download one of these systems too, right?
Gaming isn't, and shouldn't be, about how much of an unpleasant thing you can put up with. It's meant to be enjoyable, so if you have a tool available to you that can make something more enjoyable, it makes sense that people are going to use it.
Gaming is about accomplishing goals using skill and ability built up through the grind of practice. It is telling of a society filled with participation trophies that you want to skip the shitty parts straight to the reward.
I know I will catch flak for this opinion, still give no shits about the personal attacks on my intelligence. Not going to return fire.
I will say that touting your place at max level idle tapping seems a bit weak to me. Yes, I feel it is more of an accomplishment to have tapped multiple keys per kill. I also feel it js an unfair advantage to use those systems but I accept that they are allowed.
Aaaand there comes the baby boomer bullshit. Are you really claiming a moral high ground based on your ability to press a button on the keyboard over and over again?
How is this any different than WoW or Overwatch or any number of other games? You press buttons over and over to accomplish a goal in all of those. I admire the skill that comes from the hours of practice the best in the world have to go through. I am allowed to do so here.
Just because you can make something easier doesn't mean for a second that you haven't lost something in the process.
Listen, this is my opinion. Dismissing it is your right but you just make yourself look ugly when you attack an entire generation that had to work hard, however misguided they may have been in doing so.
Maybe my wording was unclear. "Baby boomer bullshit" refers to an attitude of entitlement that comes from the perspective that, "I have worked hard, and because I was able to gain x reward from my hard work, it means that anyone who does not also have x reward must not work as hard as I have," and a fetishization of "hard work" that glorifies enduring tedium and general unpleasantness rather than recognizing efficiency as equally valuable . Not all baby boomers subscribe to this viewpoint, and it's not only baby boomers who do. It's just a viewpoint commonly associated with that particular generation.
Taking a step back here, I just want to point out that if you asked anyone who doesn't play text-based MUDs whether it was more difficult/impressive/reward-worthy/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to A] hit some buttons a bunch of times over and over, or B] script an entire system to accomplish that end goal more efficiently, they would say B without hesitation.
And then they'd also say, "Wait, there's scripting and no graphics? What the f--- kind of game are you playing?" and you'd awkwardly laugh and say, "nevermind it's just a joke," and quickly change the subject.
I was being a little tongue-in-cheek earlier, but in seriousness, the way to push through bashing is to have a reason to be at Level 75 (or whatever). The best reason that motivates people is emotion, and emotions like love & hate are great drivers of activity. Pride in being #1 or top #10 in bashing is only ever going to apply to a few people, so you have to find a reason that requires Level 75 to be necessary.
There really are very few motivations to be max level, and arguable some are tenuous arguments at best. The main benefit to a higher level is a larger healthpool. The sole reason to require a larger healthpool is to be able to tank larger hits - this means (a) you either need to access places are have hard hits, (b) you want to eliminate any competitive edge with regards to healthpools.
The logical implication is that (a) means you either want to explore hard areas, and (b) you are engaged in some sort of fighting. Then you have to find the emotional trigger for (a) or (b). It is probably more commonplace to find an emotional trigger for (b) than (a) for most people. Therefore, the most likely method of finding inspiration to bash to Level 75 is to find a competitor as a watermark.
Unless something changes to gate access behind Level 75, then this should hold true for the most part.
If none of these apply to you, then your motivation may simply be I want to see that my character is at max level which is in itself a thin cause and you (and I) likely have much better things to do.
tldr You are more likely to get to Level 75 if (a) you wanna be #1-10 in XP rankings (b) you wanna be able to access all Level 75 areas (c) you have an enemy you want to crush and you need Level 75 to maintain your competitiveness
i.e. Find an enemy.
Every other reason is likely to wax & wane significantly, which increases the drudgery of bashing that can only be ameliorated by watching videos of puppies & kittens.
Thanks! I haven't figured out my motivation overall yet, but I guess in it's simplest form my motivation would be to defend my faction from those who would do her harm.
Also-- slightly unrelated note. Anyone else noticing that mobs are auto curing things like prone instantly?
I would like to give another perspective from what I can deduct from the PvE system in its current form.
Generally, basic IRE game formula for challenging mobs to have too much health, to hit like a truck and perhaps they may or may not throw some debiliating afflictions. Yet here we have a game where you can kill mobs with afflictions, most of your skills work on them. (Unfortunately cannot slay them with insta-kill right now.)
Now what if there were to be mobs which have identical skill subsets with the players, going through differing rotations, using healing abilities, possess the same wetwiring cure speed and can actually capitalize on your weaknesses (i.e your mind subsystem is below 50% a nanoseer mob mindmelting you might be OUCH!). Of course they will hardly reach the PvP flexibility of a player combatant, but they may as well reduce the gap between PvE and PvP. They would reward paying attention. High level PvE can be very engaging in such a case.
Just some food for thought, what Starmourn can achieve.
Just to add on to what everyone is saying, but for a lot of people who have been playing MUDs for years, writing scripts -IS- the game.
It's a puzzle game where you are figuring out the most efficient way to tackle the game within the rules and constraints of the game. A puzzle game with social and RP elements.
@tysandr just to expand on what you are saying, which I dont really disagree with, in SM you have more options than just health pool since we have the stat point system.
Also, and what should be a major goal for hitting 75, we have a level based gearing system. That, along with stat point allocation makes 75 a necessity for any “land” based PvP.
To put it in perspective, there was someone on Reynolds one time that attacked me with some nanoseer voodoo and because they were 15 levels below me, I was able to blow them up in one ripper, a rapidfire and a crackshot. So level matters even more for PvP here than in other IRE games.
It's essentially turning something as grand as an interactive book into something as trivial and mediocre as the dozens upon dozens of autoplay mobile games.
It's an auto play on/off switch. The grind is the sense of achievement. Turning auto play on and disengaging to watch a movie or some bs and glancing over periodically, how is that immersion? Even fully focused on the game it's still immersion breaking, you're forced into a 3rd person perspective.
Maybe that's where the discrepancy comes from, some people like 3rd person perspective and others enjoy 1st person.
Has nothing to do with oh back in the day. Or get with the times.
I think there's a difference in reward systems as well in what seems gratifying, some people like constant bursts obtained and some people like seeking.
I just don't understand how in something such as a this that should be wholly immersive it would be enjoyable to force yourself to be a passenger.
If you write the script, trust me, you're not a passenger. You are the navigator.
Yep. A big part of the fun for me is practising my coding skills to get it to do everything I want, and nothing I don't want. I won't play on someone else's system, it needs to be my code. I'm also in no rush to get to max rank, cause there's a ton of stuff I still need to build into the system.
[Cassandra]: Poet will be unsurprised to learn that she has unread news.
I hit 75 last night, what I did was make a basher that allowed me to do the moving then hit f1 and let it repeat my attacks until it killed everything. Then I move to another room, hit the button and on and on. Lets you watch movies or binge TV shows while you bash, and also keeps things within the automation rules. I highly recommend setting something up like it. You can even put in pings that will tell you when something dies, or when your health drops to a certain percent. Whatever you need to do to grab your attention when it is needed.
This is what I do too, apparently the player formed bot-police decided I was botting, so anyone who does this watch out because there are some players that don't like you bashing better than them. On the plus side, I got confirmation that auto attacking is not botting, so the bot-police can choke on it.
Comments
I know I will catch flak for this opinion, still give no shits about the personal attacks on my intelligence. Not going to return fire.
I will say that touting your place at max level idle tapping seems a bit weak to me. Yes, I feel it is more of an accomplishment to have tapped multiple keys per kill. I also feel it js an unfair advantage to use those systems but I accept that they are allowed.
The grinding is a part of the game that keeps players engaged. If levels weren't a thing, that would be one less thing to keep players around and active. I'm not saying it's the only thing to do, but it's a big one. Automation serves the same purpose as removing level based bashing, it allows a player to not focus on the game while accomplishing a goal - thereby that player is not actually engaged in the game.
Some of the fun of IRE games or muds in general for me is to see what kind of awesome stuff you can do with all the cool scripts and triggers and aliases and stuff.
Editing to add: On a more serious note, the core of the issue here is two fundamentally different opinions about what games are/should be, and what makes gaming enjoyable. It's my opinion that games are meant to be fun, not a test of endurance meant to mimic the idea of "hard work" (because let's not kid ourselves, there's no model of the universe where killing pretend monsters on a game constitutes actual "work"). I do plenty of work at work. When I'm playing a game, that's the last thing I want to do.
I think it's a mistake to write of bashing as "the shitty part" of the game, when tools like auto-queuing can actually make it kind of fun. When I have my attacks set to go at a regular interval, allowing me to choose when I want to heal or use hindering abilities instead, bashing isn't some shitty thing to endure, it's actually entertaining - which to me, is the point of a game.
Just because you can make something easier doesn't mean for a second that you haven't lost something in the process.
Listen, this is my opinion. Dismissing it is your right but you just make yourself look ugly when you attack an entire generation that had to work hard, however misguided they may have been in doing so.
https://forums.starmourn.com/discussion/572/montem-system-for-nexus-now-for-all-classes
Hey, I will even admit that the coding (specifically for bashing) that you all do is impressive but I still think that long term it hurts the game as a whole more than helps it.
And this is where I bow out. Thanks for the debate, twas fun.
if (fun > 0) {
display_notice('winning')
}
And then they'd also say, "Wait, there's scripting and no graphics? What the f--- kind of game are you playing?" and you'd awkwardly laugh and say, "nevermind it's just a joke," and quickly change the subject.
I'll definitely take a look. Thanks for the replies all.
There really are very few motivations to be max level, and arguable some are tenuous arguments at best. The main benefit to a higher level is a larger healthpool. The sole reason to require a larger healthpool is to be able to tank larger hits - this means (a) you either need to access places are have hard hits, (b) you want to eliminate any competitive edge with regards to healthpools.
The logical implication is that (a) means you either want to explore hard areas, and (b) you are engaged in some sort of fighting. Then you have to find the emotional trigger for (a) or (b). It is probably more commonplace to find an emotional trigger for (b) than (a) for most people. Therefore, the most likely method of finding inspiration to bash to Level 75 is to find a competitor as a watermark.
Unless something changes to gate access behind Level 75, then this should hold true for the most part.
If none of these apply to you, then your motivation may simply be I want to see that my character is at max level which is in itself a thin cause and you (and I) likely have much better things to do.
tldr
You are more likely to get to Level 75 if
(a) you wanna be #1-10 in XP rankings
(b) you wanna be able to access all Level 75 areas
(c) you have an enemy you want to crush and you need Level 75 to maintain your competitiveness
i.e. Find an enemy.
Every other reason is likely to wax & wane significantly, which increases the drudgery of bashing that can only be ameliorated by watching videos of puppies & kittens.
Also-- slightly unrelated note. Anyone else noticing that mobs are auto curing things like prone instantly?
Generally, basic IRE game formula for challenging mobs to have too much health, to hit like a truck and perhaps they may or may not throw some debiliating afflictions. Yet here we have a game where you can kill mobs with afflictions, most of your skills work on them. (Unfortunately cannot slay them with insta-kill right now.)
Now what if there were to be mobs which have identical skill subsets with the players, going through differing rotations, using healing abilities, possess the same wetwiring cure speed and can actually capitalize on your weaknesses (i.e your mind subsystem is below 50% a nanoseer mob mindmelting you might be OUCH!). Of course they will hardly reach the PvP flexibility of a player combatant, but they may as well reduce the gap between PvE and PvP. They would reward paying attention. High level PvE can be very engaging in such a case.
Just some food for thought, what Starmourn can achieve.
It's a puzzle game where you are figuring out the most efficient way to tackle the game within the rules and constraints of the game. A puzzle game with social and RP elements.
Also, and what should be a major goal for hitting 75, we have a level based gearing system. That, along with stat point allocation makes 75 a necessity for any “land” based PvP.
To put it in perspective, there was someone on Reynolds one time that attacked me with some nanoseer voodoo and because they were 15 levels below me, I was able to blow them up in one ripper, a rapidfire and a crackshot. So level matters even more for PvP here than in other IRE games.
It's an auto play on/off switch. The grind is the sense of achievement. Turning auto play on and disengaging to watch a movie or some bs and glancing over periodically, how is that immersion? Even fully focused on the game it's still immersion breaking, you're forced into a 3rd person perspective.
Maybe that's where the discrepancy comes from, some people like 3rd person perspective and others enjoy 1st person.
Has nothing to do with oh back in the day. Or get with the times.
I think there's a difference in reward systems as well in what seems gratifying, some people like constant bursts obtained and some people like seeking.
I just don't understand how in something such as a this that should be wholly immersive it would be enjoyable to force yourself to be a passenger.
This is what I do too, apparently the player formed bot-police decided I was botting, so anyone who does this watch out because there are some players that don't like you bashing better than them. On the plus side, I got confirmation that auto attacking is not botting, so the bot-police can choke on it.