Upcoming PVP changes

Tecton

Hey everyone,

Just a quick post to let you know about some upcoming PVP-centric changes that will be going live soon:

• We're going to be increasing the time taken in the regeneration sequence by a factor of 3

This change will give death a bit more gravity, as well as allow a bit more opportunity for engineers to use HEARTSTART.

• INRs will be encrypted for (tentatively) 30 minutes after death, preventing anyone bar the owner from being able to scan them.
• INRs will drop on logout/death.
• MS TRACK will show the location of your INR while it is still in the corpse.

Gives the victim a chance to recover their INRs from those who may have stolen it. This allows some counterplay and conflict around these, rather than just get/scan INR without and risk.

• If a player dies in PVP defending their faction (in an area that's affiliated with their faction org), reduce the cloning fee by 90%.

General reduction in penalty and encourage people participating in org-vs-org conflict.

WyldeKarde

Great changes -- thanks!

BeepBoop

Is the implication that holding someone's INR is cause for PK? Otherwise the restrictions to scanning won't really matter if people can just hold onto them while hiding behind the threat of issues.

Shinonome

I think these are good changes. But I also wonder if INRs might need a few more restrictions, like dropping if the holder boards their starship, or enters other places that someone couldn't reasonably follow.

BeepBoop said:

Is the implication that holding someone's INR is cause for PK? Otherwise the restrictions to scanning won't really matter if people can just hold onto them while hiding behind the threat of issues.

I had assumed so since I've PKed people for taking my INR... but it hadn't been put to the issue test. I guess they also accepted that it probably wouldn't hold up.

Devina

INRs are, I believe, meant to promote some conflict -- be it by ransoming an INR, auctioning off an INR, or holding it to scan yourself. A good way to increase ability to make marks with them (or not). So I would assume that being able to PK someone over having your INR and either holding it hostage or simply refusing to give it back would be acceptable, though then it also might open up doors to get your ass kicked by their friends.

Conflict is good. I like.

Antidas

@Tecton what are the chances that we could also get greater rewards for killing someone? I feel like having any mark cost associated with death is rough when the only benefit that I've noticed so far from winning a pvp fight is being able to scan an INR that gives no more xp than a single mob would.

Cubey

Antidas said:

@Tecton what are the chances that we could also get greater rewards for killing someone? I feel like having any mark cost associated with death is rough when the only benefit that I've noticed so far from winning a pvp fight is being able to scan an INR that gives no more xp than a single mob would.

How 'bout no. PvP already has a goal which is either to stroke your e-peen by showing you're better at pretend combat than the other chump or to kill enemy raiders in a cosmpiercer or something. This happens regardless of any potential rewards. You make open world PvP actually profitable and you end up with people PKing each other en masse only for personal gain.

Anonymous

Cubey said:

Antidas said:

@Tecton what are the chances that we could also get greater rewards for killing someone? I feel like having any mark cost associated with death is rough when the only benefit that I've noticed so far from winning a pvp fight is being able to scan an INR that gives no more xp than a single mob would.

You make open world PvP actually profitable and you end up with people PKing each other en masse only for personal gain.

And is that such a bad thing? It's called fun and content. The drama is exciting.

Matlkael

I'd agree to mark rewards for PK if it also comes with a zero-tolerance policy. One indefensible PK incident and you're out. 

Crag

It would be cool to see a bounty system for lawless targets. You can scan the inr for marks or greater xp rewards.

Maruna

Cubey said:

Antidas said:

@Tecton what are the chances that we could also get greater rewards for killing someone? I feel like having any mark cost associated with death is rough when the only benefit that I've noticed so far from winning a pvp fight is being able to scan an INR that gives no more xp than a single mob would.

How 'bout no. PvP already has a goal which is either to stroke your e-peen by showing you're better at pretend combat than the other chump or to kill enemy raiders in a cosmpiercer or something. This happens regardless of any potential rewards. You make open world PvP actually profitable and you end up with people PKing each other en masse only for personal gain.

If someone has a valid reason to kill you then they are gonna kill you. If they get rewards for doing so then woopty doo? If they don't have a valid reason for going around killing you then that's what issues are for.

Blur

I already seen people within the same faction resort to killing others because they thought the other person was 'rude' or some other silly so called RP reason. In one case they were even harassed after by the person's friends just because they could, and you can pretty much guess what would have happen if the person stood up to that additional harassment.

Therefore I have my doubts it is a good idea to add incentives for people to come up with 'rp' reasons to kill someone. I have no problems with PvP, even open world pvp but the current game doesn't allow it to be fair or fun pvp. There are no places where you are safe from higher level players and their friends that you have absolutely no chance against. 

If you want good RP reasons with some pk incentives, then you also need to have some good consequences when someone kills anyone out side a consented PK event. Something like a person becoming a criminal with alerts for two weeks (login time) with additional bounty incentives for them to hunted down with no consequences to those hunting them. If the reason is indefensible that criminal flag would stay around a lot longer.

That's when you'll begin seeing people PKing others with good RP reasons. Until then all this will mean is trolls coming up with more silly reasons to kill other players especially during beta when the game is beginning to attract people to start playing and learning the mechanics.

Antidas

Cubey said:

How 'bout no. PvP already has a goal which is either to stroke your e-peen by showing you're better at pretend combat than the other chump or to kill enemy raiders in a cosmpiercer or something. This happens regardless of any potential rewards. You make open world PvP actually profitable and you end up with people PKing each other en masse only for personal gain.

If there is no benefit to PK, then you'll quickly find no one is going to bother with PK, at which point the world becomes pretty stale. You have to remember that without pvp, there's no real conflict in the game beyond what the admins are able to create; you might not like pvp, and you might not like pvpers, but they remain incontrovertibly important to the game. To be clear, I'm not arguing you should be able to kill one person and be filthy rich, or that the rewards should be so extravagant so as to entice people to go around killing others for no reason (although, as already stated, this is what issues are for). What I am saying is that if PK has a net negative gain in general when you get 10 kills but die once, then why tf would anyone do it? Hell, even if its more beneficial to spend your time hunting than PKing, that's a problem. PK takes a lot more skill, and is a lot more dangerous. You should be able to get some decent XP or SOMETHING from killing someone when you finally win. For example, I got into a fight with some dude about a week ago who kept throwing himself at me over and over, and I killed him each time. However, because he kept attacking me, I was unable to hunt or do anything. I did make a point of collecting his INR each time, but unfortunately, after probably about an hour of sitting on Selubir defending myself, I came out with what may have been the same xp I could have gained in 10 minutes of being able to hunt.

Matlkael said:

I'd agree to mark rewards for PK if it also comes with a zero-tolerance policy. One indefensible PK incident and you're out. 

This is a bad idea as well, for any number of reasons. I'm in full agreement that PKing someone for no reason is not acceptable, and should be punished. However, if you just immediately ban any player that does it even once, you're going to quickly find yourself with a lack of players who want to pvp. For one, people will be incredibly nervous to kill anyone for any reason, because even if they think they are in the right, what if the admin disagrees? They stand to risk losing their character entirely if they are wrong, and so I'd be willing to bet most people just wouldn't bother anymore. You can say goodbye to any sort of dangerous world outside of things like cosmpiercers. And org raids? Yeah, that definitely wouldn't happen anymore. Secondly, while I am sure the admins do their absolute best to provide fair rulings on all situations, they are still human, and can make mistakes. How much would it suck to kill someone for a perfectly reasonable reason, only to have the admin reviewing the case miss something and then decide to ban your character? There are so many things that could go wrong with a policy like this, and there is very little positive benefit to it. If someone is being a dick and going around killing people for no reason, they're quickly going to find themselves banned from the game anyways; no reason to make a public zero-tolerance policy that will do nothing but scare people away from playing.

Matlkael

That argument goes both ways, however; what if someone keeps going around and killing another person, and the admin decide to rule on the side of the killer? It's simpler and safer to just set up exact places where wanton murder is acceptable: territorial space and cosmpiercer zones come to mind (maybe more, as the game introduces more conflict systems). Outside those zones, PK should be strictly regulated. It's rough and imperfect, but it does provide a safety net to both sides.

Maruna

Matlkael said:

That argument goes both ways, however; what if someone keeps going around and killing another person, and the admin decide to rule on the side of the killer? It's simpler and safer to just set up exact places where wanton murder is acceptable: territorial space and cosmpiercer zones come to mind (maybe more, as the game introduces more conflict systems). Outside those zones, PK should be strictly regulated. It's rough and imperfect, but it does provide a safety net to both sides.

This doesn't happen. The admin- Tecton and Matt especially- have never sided with people who go around and kill people "just because" and have always punished those who do, when they're issued. Think you'll find that a pretty sizeable majority of people who issue over PK deaths, turn out to be in the wrong. Not the ones who kill people.

Your whole "zero tolerance policy, one incident and you're out" mentality is horrifyingly bad for the longevity of a game that thrives on conflict. If that ever became a thing, you can pretty much guarantee PK never happens because of how many issue-happy people exist in IRE's playerbase.

Tye

The problem here is that any regulation on PK is subjective. If character "Bill" is a lawless asshole, his player may think that it's within RP reason to kill someone who tries to force him to follow the rules. On the other hand, if character "Christy" is a 'white-knight' type and likes following rules, her player may think it's within RP reason to kill someone who tries to enforce lawlessness. So.. if they kill each other, and issue each other, who does the admin side with? Would probably change depending on which admin gets that issue, or at best both are told "no" with a slap on the wrist. With full PK regulation and enforcement, the best case scenario wouldn't happen, and someone is getting banned, even though both PLAYERS thought they were RPing the right way. Which, as Antidas said, then makes everyone fearful of even attempting PK, and that's not good for the long-term health of the game. Whether we like it or not, a lot of whales play these games to PK - most whales are not dropping thousands of $$$ to sit at a station and RP as a flourishing tree. 

ETA: Maruna posted as I was typing, but I concur with her last paragraph. This comment was mainly aimed at Matlkael.

Shinonome

All this arguing about issue-ing... and I wonder why they haven't just systemized it like a certain other IRE game. Just seems much simpler when the game tells you PVP in certain places may incur the wraith of the PVP god - don't have to study the rules and past incidents like a lawyer to tell if you're in the wrong or not...

Tye

Personally in several years of playing Achaea as a semi-regular PKer, I've only been involved in one issue total. I don't believe in issuing unless it's straight harassment, but I know other people have less patience for shit and the issue system does exist for a reason. I do point out as frequently as I can that it's incorrect when people say shit like "Oh you got hit by a collateral shot as you were walking by? Issue them."

Matlkael

My position is that if we're going to be rewarding PK, as was suggested, then there should be heavy regulation so that it doesn't get abused.

Being killed, even just once, already carries a notable cost, so the old IRE policy of "one death is fine and permissible" is not tenable if killing players also gets you a reward. The temptation to both cause a loss to another player in addition to getting something for yourself would be too great (not even counting junk theft, if you happen to jump someone who's bashing).

Blur

Again nothing wrong with PvP and open world PvP. The fact that someone maxed out can kill someone who just started is questionable, but sure why not.

The problem is consequence free PKilling. Which is what role-playing based pvp currently is, as anyone can come up with a dumb reason to kill another one else even if it just once. With their friends being also able come up with more reasons, allowing for RP based harassment.

Relying on OOC methods such as reporting an issue is going to get messy real quick and create unnecessary work for admins as they would need to look into every issue and make a judgement. There will be no real winners if this is the way it will be handled as over time people will either thing its fair or unfair.

Instead if you want to have a game where you can PK (reasonably) then you need to be prepared to face equal amounts of penalties and consequences yourself. Did what the person say, or do piss you enough to kill them as a response? That is fine, then go for it, however be prepared to be labelled a criminal and hunted by bounty hunters for a fix amount of time as punishment. Risk and Reward. Additionally criminals would be attacked in certain lawful places especially outside their own factions, within factions perhaps they would not be able to vote or face an influence penalty.

PK is fine, consequence free pk is not. The game will become more stale when something as simple as chatting on faction chat will give people and their friends a chance to come up with excuses to hunt and kill you, forcing people to report and getting admins involved.

Indi

Exp reward for pvp in Achaea (unless it has been tweaked since he did is levelling, is high enough that Ellodin is max level and has no idea how to recommend areas for new player to bash in, because he pvped his way there. I',m sure he isn't the only one.

Achaea seems to have a healthier pvp scene than Aetolia, and the two games share the same pvp rules although population size is not equal.

Atalkez

Where is this thought process that PK isn’t regulated coming from? In the first few weeks, of course there hasn’t been much happening on that front, they’ve had other fires to put out besides someone getting ruffled over dying. That won’t continue to be the case, so it seems to me that we’re talking about something that isn’t even based in reality.

No one that PKs regularly will advocate for consequence free PK. The entire reason we PK is for the fighting, so you bringing me more fighting is just fine by me. Rewarding PK is not going to suddenly result in people killing people wantonly, as those who do will get handled rather quickly. IRE has overall been pretty good about punishing cases that deserve it. The problem with the issue system is people use it immediately, instead of working on solutions in other ways.

Matlkael

Atalkez said:

No one that PKs regularly will advocate for consequence free PK. The entire reason we PK is for the fighting, so you bringing me more fighting is just fine by me. 

That's exactly what's wrong with the design. PKers like PKing, so if the consequence of killing is the opportunity for more killing, is it really a consequence?

In Achaea, if you're a non-combatant that gets killed, the popular solution that you're told is to hire a mark on your killer. But that person, as you said, already sees fighting as a reward, so the assassin you sent after him or her is like a cherry on top of a sundae. Marks/assassins are not a solution for non-coms to not get attacked; in fact, it is a faucet through which PKers can get their fill. It is essentially a reward for people who attack others who cannot fight on their own.

Darios

It is a horrible mindset if you believe RP-Cause PK is the same as consequence free PKilling. There is a reason many (all?) of the other IRE games have shifted to RP over cause-counting and only concrete ways to incite conflict.

"Weak reasons" result in administrative punishment, they always have and always will. Just because you think it is a poor reason doesn't mean other people do.

Lastly, if two parties are so conflicted on what they think is a valid enough reason, odds are they are going to stop interacting with each other and end any RP conflict they have. If someone is trying to harass you consistently into giving them what they define as justifiable cause, you have ignore and you have issues. Harrassment isn't allowed, PK is, don't mix the two up.

Blur

@Atalkez It is currently the case, there is consequence free pkilling, and assuming it won't be the case in the future is really what isn't grounded in reality.

Again you are really being biased in favor of unrestricted killing which is fine but the assumption that people will regulate themselves or need to be regulated in OOC fashion by admins is not really something I agree with. Especially after having seen the so called RP-based killing reasons, let me just say so far they are silly and that is really being polite.

I would like to see PvP and pkilling, but there needs to be consequences for it when its outside pvp events. It should also be an in-game solution to this with enforced rules/consequences rather than have to go the OOC issue player report route.

Matlkael

If you're looking for hard examples, a couple of weeks ago, Lochlioc was repeatedly killed on the Reynolds clone room by Scatterhome due to a small conflict between Scatterhome and Celestine. Lochlioc went through at least 10 deaths (experience-wise, it was like 50% of a level, I think?).

Mechanics were changed to stop further incidents, but the players involved, as far as I know, are still playing and have suffered no other consequence other than they now have to try harder to get 10 easy kills. This is why plain RP-based PK will not work; there needs to be more regulation around it.

Maruna

Blur said:

@Atalkez It is currently the case, there is consequence free pkilling, and assuming it won't be the case in the future is really what isn't grounded in reality.

If the only viable 'consequence' to you is seeing that person no longer able to play the game, sure there's no consequence to killing people. If not, yes there is consequence. Evidently just not one that you like.

Again you are really being biased in favor of unrestricted killing which is fine but the assumption that people will regulate themselves or need to be regulated in OOC fashion by admins is not really something I agree with. Especially after having seen the so called RP-based killing reasons, let me just say so far they are silly and that is really being polite.

I'm not a "huge pk advocate" like Atalkez, and I'm in favour of them killing if they have a reason to. Which is exactly what he's been stating. Never in the history of IRE have you had to agree with their reason, which happens to be 90% of people who die for something stupid they did... If you don't think it's a valid reason, then that's what issuing is for. So long as you're aware the matter's now OOC and completely out of your hands (which most issue-happy people aren't).

I would like to see PvP and pkilling, but there needs to be consequences for it when its outside pvp events. It should also be an in-game solution to this with enforced rules/consequences rather than have to go the OOC issue player report route.

There are in-game solutions. There's already ruling in place that says if you don't take any steps IC to resolve a conflict, it's likely gonna be dismissed. You can't just say "fuck you" to the person, and then issue them because you don't like dying. If you're not actually willing to talk to the person, then there's not gonna be much pity shown your way. Different people play the game different ways, if you're not gonna find out IC why someone's doing something, then you don't have much leg to stand on by saying there's in-game solutions.

Matlkael said:

If you're looking for hard examples, a couple of weeks ago, Lochlioc was repeatedly killed on the Reynolds clone room by Scatterhome due to a small conflict between Scatterhome and Celestine. Lochlioc went through at least 10 deaths (experience-wise, it was like 50% of a level, I think?).

Anecdotal evidence never helps. Has stuff like this happened frequently enough for it to be brought up as an issue? If not, then it's not a huge deal. There were no rules in place for this kinda thing, when it did happen. There are rules now. Retroactive punishments are not going to be beneficial. The admin know this.

Mechanics were changed to stop further incidents, but the players involved, as far as I know, are still playing and have suffered no other consequence other than they now have to try harder to get 10 easy kills. This is why plain RP-based PK will not work; there needs to be more regulation around it.

See above. RP-based PK does work. Every other IRE game has RP-based PK, and it works just fine. People want others punished for every little thing that they do, that they don't like. That's simply not how the world works.

Blur

At the very LEAST you know what would be a great command to currently have:

mindism murderList

List of pkillers and victims outside pk event in the last week

Additionally you should be able to:

mindism murderList <troll name>

1: On <date> Troll (faction) murdered victim (faction)

2: On <date> Troll (faction) murdered victim (faction)

This should also allow the option for the pkiller to add comments for their reason for pkilling someone if they want so that people can review when they are interacting with the person.

Again there should be consequences and there should be an in-game mechanics that help to begin holding people accountable for such actions.

Maruna

So you want a lynching system.

Well that escalated quickly.

Gl with that. We'll be over here in reality, in the meantime.

Tye

Yeah, that's legit a lynch list. That idea can flakk right off.

Edit: changed to a more appropriate curse.

Blur

@Maruna The rules that govern the consequences can be debated but again so far all I'm hearing is you want consequences free pkilling without anyway to hold people accountable for their actions within the game. If being able to track who is killing who is considered a lynching system, you can pretty much imagine the so called RP reasons behind pkilling can't be that good to begin with, otherwise people would be able to justify their actions in front of their peers and factions. The comment 'there are just some people you can't say fuck you to' further proves this point since currently that can just basically anyone that started the game earlier than you.