EM damage changes - discuss

Indi

-- Updates - #124 -------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     02/14/2019 at 18:55

Author:   Garryn, the Reshaper

Subject:  EM attacks.

The old concept of EM damage didn't really work very well, and as such, is now reworked!

* EM buildup / wearoff is removed, EM is a damage type like the others, with some specifics

* All robots and similar targets now have 20% resists to all forms of damage except EM

* Non-robots have a 50% resistance to EM damage

* When you hit a non-robot with EM damage, there is a 2-second window. If the target uses any tech

attack during this window, they get hit for some more damage, as well as muscular damage

* Dampening (Suittech) removed, added EMShot to MWP

* Disrupt (Bots) now gives electrical damage and the scaling has changed

* Degauss (Bots) makes bots/turrets temporarily immune to EM attacks

* Shock (Gadgets) changed to give EM damage only, not an EM/electric combo

* Magnetize (Gadgets) changed to give muscular damage scaling to shrapnel count

* Magnotron (Gadgets) upgraded a bit

* Gaussify (Gadgets) changed to give elec damage scaling to muscular

* Gaussmeter (Gadgets) removed

* Switchout (Gunslinging) removed

* Grounding (Oblivion) changed to block forced movement on everyone in the room (voluntary movement

still works)

* Affinity (Nanotech) still gives +25% damage, but duration now depends on sensory subsys damage

  - experimental, may downtone it if it proves too powerful

* Discharge (Skirmishing) and EMStatus (Skirmishing) removed

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indi

Morning for me, so my brief look and results aren't worth too much (did it while eating breakfast). Initial thoughts are that shock is much slower than  claw was, and that delta deck bots at least seem to resist more than 20%.

But, I'll play with it a lot more later on today or tonight.

Cubey

* All robots and similar targets now have 20% resists to all forms of damage except EM

Expert a surge in newbie deaths by malfunctioning drone.

EDIT: Oh yeah and RIP seers/engies. Furies will eat you alive now.

RocketCat

I like the changes to (theoretically) make EM a viable path. But I wonder why the choice was to largely remove EM as an offensive option from Nanoseer. Of course there is still ZAP, but zap now completely lacks synergy with the rest of Nano's kit. Interested to test out the changes to Affinity regardless, though inflicting Sensory damage as Nanoseer still seems like a bit of a trap.

Yaran

EMshot doesn't do enough damage to offset the damage loss on mob robots due to the new resists, so this is a net nerf to bot bashing.

kamyr

Getting to near 0 sensory on a mob was 36s. 3 eyestrikes + echoing was 10s.
I don't see a point to it that way. You really need it to last for four hits to make up for the spent balance, and if it lasts that long, you either A - wasted a lot of effort pursuing sensory alone or B - they are in danger of breakdown or mindmelt (with a modicum of effort that'd be easier than damaging).

300 tech frenzy zap on a bot average 550 with 9280 goggles.
300 psyche freeze starts at 420.
So, really, just a straight nerf to bashing bots.

I guess the grounding change is okay?

kamyr

1st block was for nano affinity. Not editing since that seems to be the way to kill a post.

Woodro

so instead of fixing the concept we just get a lazy rework. Wonder why numbers are dropping

Soza

kamyr said:

Also us nanoseers have counterzap, which from my testing does nothing now. and on the note of grounding, I think its a great ability. TLDR Affinity just seems like a worse frenzy where the only case of it being better is that it will affect all the multi ticks and swarm hits instead of just 5 damage ticks.

Quick edit, Grounding flavortext still states "You can again ground yourself from EM attacks." Even though it no longer has anything to do with EM anymore.

Cubey

Question to y'all seers: grounding counts as aggressive action or not? Sounds like it'd be useful against jerks who didn't get the memo that pulling folks out of saferooms is bug abuse. Or maybe I should start throwing issues around...

Soza

Cubey said:

Question to y'all seers: grounding counts as aggressive action or not? Sounds like it'd be useful against jerks who didn't get the memo that pulling folks out of saferooms is bug abuse. Or maybe I should start throwing issues around...

Tell me where a saferoom is and I can test, None of omni is considered safe anymore. I can also just freely use aggressive actions in Med'Bay now so thats likely not safe either. So youd have to find me one to test on.

kamyr

Another forgotten skill

-- WIREBLOCK (Nanotech) -------------------------------------------------------

If your target's wetwiring has suffered 10% or greater damage, you can order your nanites to wreak further

havoc and prevent all subsystem repairs. How long your swarm can keep this up will depend on the EM damage applied to your enemy.

Garryn

Fixed those messages, as well as counterzap. Wireblock abhelp was incorrect, it never scaled to EM damage, but to existing WW damage - the help is now fixed.

Soza

Garryn said:

Fixed those messages, as well as counterzap. Wireblock abhelp was incorrect, it never scaled to EM damage, but to existing WW damage - the help is now fixed.

With the new counterzap it seems to just reduce the EM damage that you are taking, which isnt really the problem that nanoseer has against EM focused damage. Our problem fighting against it is that if we use any nanite attack. Including our heal we take a 1.5% internal subsys hit, this is just against fury as I havent fought any other em focused classes yet. It is quite crazy they get damage, subsys, aff, and additional subsys if I use a nanotech ability.

Im not even sure if intercept is reducing that damage either.

Activating Just the pure minimal buffs to fight brings you to 50% nanites already gone, This doesnt include envelop. 
https://i.imgur.com/s5nvs8R.png
Activating Minimal buffs with counterzap brings you down to 41% still not including Envelop.
https://i.imgur.com/cE2tY8L.png
if you activate all the fighting buffs, and the QoL buffs Alertness/Rush/Mislead 10% still not including envelop.
https://i.imgur.com/sDi8z7P.png

Envelop is 5%

Delaying an attack takes a full 10% during the delay you cant use or regenerate that 10%

wireblock takes 10% for the full duration

I didnt intend to go on a rant about our lack of nanites. this just seems to be another defense that Ill have to keep up. why do nanites seem to be a class resource that is limiting us when we are already so far limited by RNG / Sanity / Long CD's. I dont know the defenses of other classes but do yall's defenses take up your main resource for attacking/healing?

Nykara

Soza said:

Garryn said:

Fixed those messages, as well as counterzap. Wireblock abhelp was incorrect, it never scaled to EM damage, but to existing WW damage - the help is now fixed.

With the new counterzap it seems to just reduce the EM damage that you are taking, which isnt really the problem that nanoseer has against EM focused damage. Our problem fighting against it is that if we use any nanite attack. Including our heal we take a 2.5% internal subsys hit. Which is comparable to us using confound and getting the 1/5 confusion. but EM damage also does damage and depending on the attack in the case that I tested still applies afflictions. Im not sure why hitting while in that EM period does arguably the most damage you can do to a subsys in one hit or even repair. with no cooldown.

Im not even sure if intercept is reducing that damage either.

Activating Just the pure minimal buffs to fight brings you to 50% nanites already gone, This doesnt include envelop. 
https://i.imgur.com/s5nvs8R.png
Activating Minimal buffs with counterzap brings you down to 41% still not including Envelop.
https://i.imgur.com/cE2tY8L.png
if you activate all the fighting buffs, and the QoL buffs Alertness/Rush/Mislead 10% still not including envelop.
https://i.imgur.com/sDi8z7P.png

Envelop is 5%

Delaying an attack takes a full 10% during the delay you cant use or regenerate that 10%

wireblock takes 10% for the full duration

I didnt intend to go on a rant about our lack of nanites. but why do nanites seem to be a class resource that is limiting us when we are already so far limited by RNG / Sanity / Long CD's

wow what a hijacker
also the em tick is only 1.5% my fren

Soza

Nykara said:

<snip>

I fixed it

Woodro

Why is that nanoseer's think they can just come on every thread and complain about things? This a EM thread not a "my nanites are a resource" thread

Matlkael

We have the Y'saari-given right to complain*!!*!

kamyr

I mean, I wasn't *going* to say anything about zap costing 700k vs most other nano spammers costing 500k...

Woodro

Matlkael said:

We have the Y'saari-given right to complain*!!*!

Well you go do it somewhere else we don't want your privledge here. Non EM damaging class! I am playing by the way don't get your pitchforks out and come and get your ass whooped. 

PSA IF you ain't LAWLESS you a bitch

Soza

Woodro said:

Why is that nanoseer's think they can just come on every thread and complain about things? This a EM thread not a "my nanites are a resource" thread

The nanite problem was just increased by the EM changes as its another 9% more to keep reserved. with minimal buffs + alertness and the new added fact of counterzap, that leaves you with 32%
This is not with envelop which is probably required to do any sort of mind damage.
https://i.imgur.com/JanoJYk.png
After envelop it would leave you with 28%
https://i.imgur.com/39esRJu.png
If you then delay an attack in combat you are stuck at 18% until the delay hits.
If you also want to keep wireblock up You lose another 10% until it isnt up.
Leaving you with a final 8%
With 8% You cant even use your class heal.

None of this even mentions the fact that in any Empyreal other than progenitor You cannot keep up with the demands to keep outputting attacks.

Darios

I didn't have any issues keeping nanites up when I was sparring as Nano, you have to pick and choose your defenses wisely, this is called a downside for when a class has access to numerous strong skills. Nano is not struggling.

Every class has to deal with triggering EM now (possibly not fury if kithblade attacks don't trigger it.) Nano at least has the luxury of minddrain to not trigger it, also the window is only 2s, semi-decent chance it will fade off before you get balance back.

I will admit the added buff to fury system dps probably wasn't super well thought out when they weren't struggling at all. Most if not all other EM applying skills don't come alongside already high system damaging and afflicting skills like lightningshape does.

Woodro

Yeah EM buffed the hell outta fury. I am fury and EM damage is just way to strong. That said I am not sure what is going on with Nano maybe that the way the want it. I don’t know as well and posting all the numbers and shit ain’t changing anything. You post EM is nanos problem then list 5 other things.

 Nanites sound stupid but get this shit resistant I have to lose a dmg/subsystem attack just refresh it. Plus I am open to stack for at least 15 seconds before I can apply it. Oh I want a damage increase time to March my happy ass across the to get berserk. Oh I got it great now I need resistant again? Back across we go.

Now mind you I have a lot of great things my class can do but, I am here to complain about my class not being borderline perfect. I love you like a brother Soza but as someone that gets their ass kicked by you all day everyday. I feel you are wrong! 

Ps on phone please forgive typos
pss love you Soza 

Paqu

Came here expecting discussion with engineers.  Got nanoseers instead.

Paqu

At any rate,  Engineers.  I came here to see iif any of you Engineers hhave found a way to incorporate EM damage to your combos,  as Gaussify no llonger cconverts EM to Internal damage as originally meant  to be.

So far,  I haven't seen practical application for shock except to just spam with iit if yyou have bots for an enemy.  Haven't tested  it,  though.

Indi

@Paqu
The changes leave engineers in a strange place, but don't forget that the first classlead round is soon so we have the opportunity to get things changed - just need to learn and practice what we have as much as possible before then.

Shock does similar damage to claw, without the bleeding and without any afflictions or subsys damage. This means shock is pointless in both pve and pvp. The same can be said for every class's EM damage move that is purely EM damage. It can only be useful in pve if the damage is equivalent to normal bashing, and it can only be useful in PVP if it doesn't interfere with the normal advancement of goals (subsys or affliction damage, basically).

So for engineer, forget EM damage. Engineers went from a class where the pvp kill strategy revolved around EM damage, to having EM damage be an unimportant afterthought, similar to BEAST - i.e. one token em damage attack to help bash bots.

The other engineer changes are potent, but odd. There is some doubling up of stuff (for example: gaussify vs disrupt) which may have been done to give us options if our bots are destroyed. Disrupt is better, but I appreciate the thought.

Another partial double up is magnotron and magnetise. Magnotron is very potent now, but magnetise is repeatable - i.e. it doesn't burn the spikes in the process. Magnetise is probably nerfworthy to be honest, and I've already got several possibilities but I need to spar a lot before I'd be willing to say what they are. Weekends aren't the best time for me so all I've been able to do with the changes is test and theorise.

One thing is clear - engineer pvp strategy is to rush musc and/or internal subsys damage, and that is the only dimension to it. Have fun with that and hopefully someone (whether the devs or players via classleads) can think of something to make it more interesting later on.

Maruna

Just gonna chime in and point out Engineer was never at a point where their PvP revolved around EM damage. The EM route for Engineer was just as awful as other classes, and took 10x as long as any other route they have. Didn't help that you could nullify it literally just by crashing whenever they dropped gaussfield.

Indi

Yeah, but it was obviously the intention that it would be, and that aspect was supposed to bring something a bit more interesting and challenging to the class. 

Minion

The whole original em path was supposed to be different and interesting in general. They reverted it because it simply didn't work the way it was intended for any class. 

As it is, they really need to focus on making the current paths work solidly before going off in weird or "interesting" directions. It will get there but may take some time.

Poet

Does counterzap reduce damage from electrical attacks by bots? I've been watching and just looking at the numbers, it doesn't seem like.  Be nice if it did.

It would also be nice if Zap had another skill with some synergy, like freeze and swarm do.

Soza

Poet said:

Does counterzap reduce damage from electrical attacks by bots? I've been watching and just looking at the numbers, it doesn't seem like.  Be nice if it did.

It would also be nice if Zap had another skill with some synergy, like freeze and swarm do.

Counterzap only reduces damage from the inital EM hit that you take. It's in my opinion a waste of 10% nanites.