Junk drop threshold

snailbee

I was recently informed by the admin that:

"In the interest of fairness to all players, Starmourn has a system where your junk drops are scaled back once you reach a certain threshold. You will not be able to simply hunt indefinitely and expect the same return on junk. Wise use of your time would involve perhaps breaking off to do some quests or work on captaincy and hacking."

I think this is the wrong way to go about it. I feel punished for being active.

1. It does not take into account other people taking junk off you when you die.
2. Repair and clone costs do not go away.
3. It makes it hard for people to catch up to people that are already higher up in the rankings.
4. Not everyone enjoys captaincy and hacking.
5. The scaling is very harsh. Over the 1000 monsters I killed after the junk drop threshold was reached, I got a total of 197 pieces of junk worth 776 marks with most of the junk being worth 5 gold or less.

I don't see why a player cannot bash from level 1 to 75 in a short amount of time without getting penalized since there are people already 75 and farming up marks. There are people with millions of marks, and I don't really see why it is okay if the money is from selling lucky drops or credits, but not okay if it is from nonstop bashing. Captaincy is already more profitable than bashing as repair costs get proportionally more as you get higher level, not even counting the random deaths from lag or a resisted interrupt on monsters that do windup attacks.

EDIT:

There seems to be 2 levels of junk drop limiting: one where all the junk dropped will be 5 gold or less, and then one where most junk dropped will be 1 gold.

As an example, here is the result of killing 100 monsters of the same level:

a handful of scales (#93271)             1

a haunch of meat (#95560)                1

a jointed spine (#82332)                 1

a bunch of feathers (#42959)             1

a jointed spine (#38182)                 1

a handful of splintered bones (#59519)   1

a cryotube of lipids (#18540)            1

a preserved lymph gland (#58500)         1

a bulbous sac (#71770)                   1

a jointed spine (#71406)                 1

a bunch of feathers (#88542)             1

a bunch of feathers (#49799)             1

a handful of splintered bones (#93289)   1

a haunch of meat (#94440)                1

a preserved lymph gland (#61500)         1

a serrated mandible (#101955)            1

a jointed spine (#42813)                 1

a single long feather (#58745)           1

a handful of scales (#56084)             1

a single long feather (#104027)          1

a flat curving bone (#102946)            1

a preserved lymph gland (#39666)         1

a handful of splintered bones (#93616)   1

an alien tissue sample (#106880)         1

a handful of splintered bones (#62458)   1

a serrated mandible (#70376)             1

a long bone (#82931)                     5

27 pieces of junk worth 31 marks total. In addition, I did not get a single equipment or mod drop, but this could either be because of poor RNG or because of the drop threshold.

Shinonome

Explains why drops stopped for me... well, at least FF14 has a new patch to play with...

zacc

How many mobs were bashed and marks earned before hitting the threshold?

I don't see how captaincy is more profitable. It's a massive marks sink.

Matlkael

The mark faucet can't be unlimited. However, maybe when the overall junk cap is reached, boost experience gain until the cap resets? This prevents excessive generation of marks while still allowing people to 'catch up', at least in terms of experience/levels.

liamerven

As a blind player I can't exactly go out and do captaincy until scooping is made screenreader friendly, so I've been stuck bashing. My issue has been less about junk drops though yes this is annoying, but more about the extreme rarity of armor and weapons drops. I realize this is by design, so I've just had to suck it up and deal.

Tecton

The junk cap exists to ensure a healthy economy. Without it, you have people sitting there 12+ hours a day generating a ridiculous amount of marks and causing a general imbalance as the value of marks tanks. 

It currently starts kicking in after you've earned as much as you would make bashing non-stop (with 0 seconds of downtime) for 4 hours at your level, which, for most people, you will hardly ever see. It resets at the sync every day. After you hit this threshold, your junk drops are reduced slowly for every percent you are over the soft cap, which should give you around 6 hours of bashing until you're getting down to the "practically none" levels of junk drops.

I know this is frustrating for people who are very active in the game, but it's something that has to exist for the in-game economy to work.

bairloch

Sounds fair to me, but then I'm at the bottom.

Yalau

I like it.  

snailbee

Tecton said:

The junk cap exists to ensure a healthy economy. Without it, you have people sitting there 12+ hours a day generating a ridiculous amount of marks and causing a general imbalance as the value of marks tanks. 

It currently starts kicking in after you've earned as much as you would make bashing non-stop (with 0 seconds of downtime) for 4 hours at your level, which, for most people, you will hardly ever see. It resets at the sync every day.

I know this is frustrating for people who are very active in the game, but it's something that has to exist for the in-game economy to work.

As it stands, it actively discourages people from playing.  Bashing becomes a mark drain as repair costs continue. People at the level cap do not get anything at all.

Instead of drastically reducing the drop rate on junk, implement a resting bonus (You get x hours of bonus junk drops every day). Otherwise people that have started playing earlier for every day will always be ahead in generated marks (both from the level mark modifier and from the daily limit).

Having a daily limit (essentially a daily) turns Starmourn into a chore/job for me, as opposed to letting me play a game when I feel like it without feeling like I will be at a disadvantage.

Yalau

"actively discourages people from playing" if the only thing you want to do is bash.  More power to you if you do but man you're missing out.

BeepBoop

You can be engaging in the game in other ways while still bashing. You can't if you've decided you've done your daily and have nothing more to get from it and qq to play something else.

Matlkael

Yeah, having a cap means that if/when I myself reach that cap, I can relax and do more things in the game that are not as efficient as bashing.

snailbee

Yalau said:

"actively discourages people from playing" if the only thing you want to do is bash.  More power to you if you do but man you're missing out.

The only things I am missing out on while bashing are hacking and captaincy.

You can roleplay (in person, on channels, or through tells), play politics, perform diplomacy, read news, help newbies, read the lore, come up with designs for new trade items, bargain with people off the market clan (thanks Bob), run a business, direct people, and more while simultaneously bashing. Tabbed chat exists even in the default Nexus and you can capture more than just chat channels.

People are naturally loss adverse. If I haven't finished my 4 hours of bashing for the day, then I will feel less incentive to sit around and roleplay as I will be missing out on my chance to earn money. If I have already finished my 4 hours of bashing for the day, then I may as well wait for tomorrow. If I can't log in for some time because of RL issues, I can't make up for my lost time by playing more. It turns Starmourn into a routine task that must be done every day (a chore) and a daily trade of time for money (a job).

Extra Credits did a nice youtube video on how WoW turned a negative (losing exp per a stamina system) into a bonus (gaining exp per a rested exp system) for the same net result with more player satisfaction.

zacc

IDK how you do all of that while bashing at the same time. Doesn't that kind of walk a fine line in regards to automation?

Arsentar

Tells don't take balance and its not like bashing requires all that much thought

zacc

Yeah, but reading news, documents, help files, managing market stuff, design new items, etc. at the exact same time as bashing? Eh... I guess it would depend on how AFK is defined in this game. Although, IMO, if bashing is so boring and tedious that you'd have to find something else to do at the same time, why bother with it in the first place?

Aurelius

snailbee said:

I don't really see why it is okay if the money is from selling lucky drops or credits, but not okay if it is from nonstop bashing. 

Well, those aren't the same thing at all. Selling things to other players doesn't create Marks - it just moves them around with no effect on the overall economy. Selling junk creates Marks out of thin air, which affects the entire economy and therefore is of concern where the other two aren't.

Shinonome

zacc said:

Although, IMO, if bashing is so boring and tedious that you'd have to find something else to do at the same time, why bother with it in the first place?

- Some people like seeing numbers go up
- Some people like having busywork to do while they work on tangential things
- Some people like having something low effort/relaxing to do, while waiting for other opportunities (socializing/rp/pvp/etc) to come up.
- Some people like having something low effort/relaxing to do while they watch Netflix, but still giving a sense of progression.
- Bashing is the game's main progression mechanic

kamyr

I'd prefer a resting system over that hard falloff in productivity. Especially if you can work in some stuff into the mix like being full of food upping the recovery rate or giving a bonus if you're hanging around a bunch of people and interacting.

At the very least:
1 - Junk rates should cover repair costs and an occasional death even when you've 'maxed out'.
2 - You should get some indication instead of it being an esoteric mechanic that none of us would know about without an individual's admin response being posted on the forums.

Arsentar

I absolutely despite bashing, but bashing is how you get more stat points, how you progress the main quest (which I happen to like, for a change), the primary way you get junk to sell for marks (there's incursions too, but those are not as reliable from the get-go), and is also a nice motivator to explore  and learn about the world.

So, yeah... It isnt as simple as don't do it if you don't like it

Sairys

An actual rested bonus would be pretty nice but by that I mean, if you don't hit your cap on a day it gets banked up to a maximum of like 6x your daily. So this way people who can't play 4 hours a day every day can catch up on days they're more available.

Even better if there's a point where instead of increasing the time you have it instead increases the profit you generate in that time. (Otherwise you end up with a bank that'd mean you'd want to play for 16 hours on the days you can)

bairloch

So what I'm hearing is two playstyles. One doesn't like this. The other is neutral or approves.
The one, from what Tecton is saying, has a negative impact on the in-game economy. The other does not.
Based on that, I don't think it's going anywhere, nor should it.

zacc

I would like to see a more elaborate drop system, where drop quality and quantity are influenced by bashing frenquency in an area and maybe a variable that determines the general wealth of the area (a wealthy city will naturally have better drops compared to other areas pre bashing influence). To prevent high level players from coming in and continuously clearing out the place, causing pressure to skyrocket or giving them never-ending high quality drops, their influence would be minimal but impactful in the long run (maybe a quarter to half that of a character within the area's level range or scaled based on level difference - larger the difference, lesser the influence) and there would be a slight negative modifier to their drop rate/quality scaling with how many levels the area is below them. Players below an area's level range would have minimal influence on degree of bashing as well but gain a positive drop quality modifier that scales with the difference in levels (risk vs reward). No daily caps. What stops everyone from bashing out the lowbie areas because their impact on bashing frequency would be minimal? Those areas receive low drop quality/rate modifiers but instead offer level appropriate/restricted quests for xp and marks. What stops the marks faucet from spewing endless drops in any area? Bashing frequency's influence on drops. What allows players to bash forever, and ever, and ever until they just can't bare it any longer? No daily caps and the ability to switch to a different area if their current area "dries up". Degree of bashing would, of course, be relieved over time - preferably at random intervals so that it can't be timed - if not bashed as often, allowing for the area's wealth potential to regenerate.

Aurelius

I think we have come up with a solution that will ameliorate the problem of bashing not being worth it after you hit the junk soft cap.

bairloch

care to share? should I keep my eyes open for a changelog/update?

Kax

If he uses ameliorate to describe it, you know it's gonna be good!

Matlkael

!!! Maybe if you've maxxed out junk drops, HETE removes (or at least drastically reduces) your clone costs for the day/turn. !!!

I would do it just so I can finally try to fiddle again with the level 55 story quest (I've lost so many marks with it)

snailbee

kamyr said:

I'd prefer a resting system over that hard falloff in productivity. Especially if you can work in some stuff into the mix like being full of food upping the recovery rate or giving a bonus if you're hanging around a bunch of people and interacting.

At the very least:
1 - Junk rates should cover repair costs and an occasional death even when you've 'maxed out'.
2 - You should get some indication instead of it being an esoteric mechanic that none of us would know about without an individual's admin response being posted on the forums.

Matlkael said:

!!! Maybe if you've maxxed out junk drops, HETE removes (or at least drastically reduces) your clone costs for the day/turn. !!!

I would do it just so I can finally try to fiddle again with the level 55 story quest (I've lost so many marks with it)

Either of these solutions would be great but I look forward to the solution that @Aurelius has found.

It's not so much that I want to be overflowing in marks, it's just that while maxed out, any bashing is a straight up mark drain because repair and clone costs are not covered.

Shinonome

All in all the cap is not as bad as I thought it would be. I'm not sure if when it was first added, I did something to quickly spike the tracker or maybe if numbers were still being tuned or something but I seemed to hit the cap a lot faster and harder the first time...

One way or another, it'd be nice to know our standing somewhere instead of trying to guess if we're on the cap's curve yet...

Qitorien

Tecton, when you say 4 hours with zero down time, what happens if you do have down time, either just taking a break or doing something else in game or log out entirely before you hit 4 hours? Does it reset or continue on from where it was when you stopped bashing?

Maruna

Pretty sure he doesn't mean "you get to bash for 4 hours and then you're done"

It's a projected guess on what you'd be expected to make in 4 hours of straight bashing at that level. If the game thinks you should be able to make 50k in 4 hours, then your 'cap' is at 50k marks.