I disagree personally. Reaching 100 is a great achievement and not having to eat/sleep is great, but I'd like there be more of a motivating reward. It doesn't even necessarily have to be flashy or have any great mechanical benefit (particularly for PvP), but I'd like -something- beyond the stats, etc, of reaching a milestone level. (And it doesn't necessarily have to be 99/100 for me.)
To add to that... having something special at the end gives you new goals. Like... "Oh, I want that weatherproof power so snowstorms aren't such a pain" (Ion storms in starmoun?) etc. Instead of just... "Ok I'm 100, now what?"
a system like Demipowers just extends the time until that happens
In the end, everything is just an extension/delay until that happens...
But, funnily enough, that's how modern MMOs have found success. An endgame/top level progression system that gets regular expansions... And, you know, it's not like these things are mutually exclusive. You can have your epic quests, and the endgame progression system both...
The standard IRE level 100 progression really isn't the same as your typical MMO max level though, so the comparison doesn't really work.
MMOs tend to follow the model that you need to get to max level to be a complete character and the games are really worked around getting you there, once you hit that max you generally end up in gearing progression, doing content over and over to get better equipment so you can do higher level content over and over and so on until the next expac drops. In comparison, IRE has seemed to diminish the need to hit max level, you can learn all of your abilities straight out of character creation, the differences in health/mana are there but you can work around them, and with some small exceptions you can get the best possible gear immediately (some require learning a trade first).
An IRE that followed the MMO progression model would be a very different game.
It's not an all or nothing deal. You can take some elements and concepts and integrate them, without needing to 1:1 copy everything (particularly making it all about gear/ilvls)...
Sure, but when you're talking about a system that would call for consistent expansion you kinda need to consider what exactly that expansion is.
End-game progression in an MMO is ultimately about acquiring more power, that's what makes it feel like you're progressing because you're able to tackle harder content and earlier content becomes easier. (I'm gearing up right now in FFXIV incidentally, there's a pretty big gap between a fresh 70 and a geared one)
So if you're not talking about that, what sort of progression are you talking about? Which would also likely lead to questions about why it has to be a max level thing.
EDIT: Just as an aside, if Starmourn is developed to be a themepark style game (i.e everyone is intended to get to max level relatively easily) then I agree the end-game is a necessity.
But IRE MUDs are realistically sandbox MMOs, we just go in, do whatever we like, and the levelling isn't really as well defined as a themepark because max level isn't that important.
Going from IRE examples, I would say the emphasis seems less on acquiring tiered levels of power like ilvls... A little more focused on utility (going back to things like weatherproof again). And I'm not saying it needs entirely new sets of things to earn on a clockwork schedule. In the end, what I'm really just saying is it would be nice to have a progression system at max level, and occasional additions to that wouldn't be bad...
It's a proven concept generally (not for every kind of player as you imply; some will never bother even going for max level), and IRE's even already done the heavy lifting on finding an incarnation of the concept that works with their games. It can be done; it can be done without forgetting other playstyles; and I think it would be neat to see, personally.
Again, taking this concept generally doesn't mean making the game a 1:1 copy of other models and turning it into a themepark MMO, or similar... If you do compare to another game, Warframe is a good example of something that does this without going with the WoW model. Nonlinear progression, fairly sandboxy and work towards whatever you want. If you do minmax, you'll be far more powerful than any content actually asks for. But! If you want to work on getting every last stat point you can, optimizing your build as far as you can... there are options to grind for that... And having options is nice^^
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Probably a little bit moot though. This late into the game's development, whatever they do or don't have at max level is probably decided and at least partially worked on, even if they're being tight lipped about it...
Realistically though, there is only so much utility and customisation that you can hand out. Also, you'll likely find that some players would start complaining that there's nothing for them because they're not interested in that. At that point, there's pressure to release mechanical/combat benefits into the system.
It's also not an implication, it's a simple fact of game design that the more important max level is the more pressure is placed on players to reach it.
Warframe might not be the best comparison because it's really just a gearing game when you get down to it and there's not much else to really do in the game (It's another one I've played a few hundred hours of)
Realistically the difficulty drawing comparisons to other games is that, since WoW, the MMO field has been dominated by the end-game/gearing progression. Your better modern examples of alternatives are games like BDO and EVE
Also, it's potentially not given last I saw the game was planned to be released with the level capped at 70.
Well... no matter how grindy the game is, it will eventually get top heavy. For people that just want to RP/socialize/write or basically do anything that's not very character stats/mechanics dependent... I'm sure they'll be happy enough not hitting max level as with current systems. If they don't care about hitting the game mechanics' top levels of power, they probably aren't going to care much about perks that are tied to those same mechanics...
Warframe might not be the best comparison because it's really just a gearing game when you get down to it and there's not much else to really do in the game (It's another one I've played a few hundred hours of)
Have to disagree here... That not so many people do scenarios/kuva farming/raids indicates that people find more entertainment besides minmaxing/top end content and that there's more than one playstyle. Don't want to get too much more into it to stay loosely on topic though...
Also, you'll likely find that some players would start complaining that there's nothing for them because they're not interested in that.
I think this is where we have to flat out agree to disagree. Both big name MMOs and IRE manage to serve several audiences/playstyles perfectly well. Like I've said 3 ish times now, I don't think adding extra gameplay at the top level is going to rain on anyone's parade if they're interested in other aspects of the game... so I'm just going to leave it at that. (Probably my last post unless/until something new comes up).
The level cap at 75 is an interesting development. Back in MKO we had no level cap, but it became increasingly more insane to level. I think the highest someone got was about level 120. At level 100, you got access to the hall of worlds, and I believe you got the stat maximums lifted slightly (so you could put more points into specific stats), but that was about it.
Anyways, I would prefer that the max level to not have a significant impact on PvP (maybe a few minor boosts, but nothing too powerful), nor for them to become described as gods or some such, especially since there is a habit of a good chunk of the playerbase becoming max level in pretty much any game with a max level (which would make such descriptions absurd). Maybe a choice of unique perks or some neat utility abilities, but nothing too flashy or powerful.
Bashing is generally just a distraction in my mind from what makes MUDs worth playing as opposed to MMOs, and having everyone out bashing instead of interacting with each other is not a good thing in my mind, so it should be kept lightly rewarded enough that people only do it beyond a certain point if they actually enjoy it. Notably, I did not get to level 100 in MKO for this reason.
For the record, we will have no significant mechanical reward for reaching top level at launch, though we certainly will later, whatever we decide top level to be.
(In Achaea, for instance, top level was 80 when it launched, and levels 81+ plus Dragon weren't added until post-launch.)
Bashing is generally just a distraction in my mind from what makes MUDs worth playing as opposed to MMOs, and having everyone out bashing instead of interacting with each other is not a good thing in my mind, so it should be kept lightly rewarded enough that people only do it beyond a certain point if they actually enjoy it. Notably, I did not get to level 100 in MKO for this reason.
Agreed. We're not building a DIKU-style MMO (i.e. Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc).
Agreed. We're not building a DIKU-style MMO (i.e. Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc).
Does this mean there will be a way to actually advance in level that does not involve bashing? Most of the non-bashing methods in the other games are far too slow compared with bashing so everyone just bashes even if they hate it.
Agreed. We're not building a DIKU-style MMO (i.e. Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc).
Does this mean there will be a way to actually advance in level that does not involve bashing? Most of the non-bashing methods in the other games are far too slow compared with bashing so everyone just bashes even if they hate it.
I think this is where we have to flat out agree to disagree. Both big name MMOs and IRE manage to serve several audiences/playstyles perfectly well. Like I've said 3 ish times now, I don't think adding extra gameplay at the top level is going to rain on anyone's parade if they're interested in other aspects of the game... so I'm just going to leave it at that. (Probably my last post unless/until something new comes up).
Eh, the quote you're using here seems rather out of context.
The comment you're responding to is about a noted behaviour where players who get to max level and don't have something of interest to them available then start arguing in favour of expansions that would interest them. Which you seem to be disagreeing with?
But your point seems more related to the other points made about how players can feel increasing pressure to get to max level based on those extra features.
Something you're dismissing as a concern by citing games where this is an increasing concern among commentators and even game directors.
As I've repeatedly said now, putting a couple rewards for hitting the top is neat and all, but I also believe level-locking content behind something that not everyone is intended to reach is a bad idea.
Also, I believe if a system like this is intended to see consistent expansion. We'll likely see it begin to incorporate effects that have an impact on combat and class effectiveness, increasing the pressure to be max.
Agreed. We're not building a DIKU-style MMO (i.e. Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc).
Does this mean there will be a way to actually advance in level that does not involve bashing? Most of the non-bashing methods in the other games are far too slow compared with bashing so everyone just bashes even if they hate it.
Thanks! This is what I assumed so no big deal, but I do find it amusing.
Personally I think player given RP rewards should be available and at least equal to bashing. I realize that this could be abused by some players but players also abuse bashing.
You're entirely missing the point of the comparisons (and my points in general, which haven't changed from my earliest posts on the topic), though yes you can look at any number of different games and draw the same conclusions...
At this point I would just suggest rereading my previous posts, as I really don't have anything to say I haven't said already...
But, I know you don't agree, hence agree to disagree : )
You're entirely missing the point of the comparisons (and my points in general, which haven't changed from my earliest posts on the topic), though yes you can look at any number of different games and draw the same conclusions...
At this point I would just suggest rereading my previous posts, as I really don't have anything to say I haven't said already...
But, I know you don't agree, hence agree to disagree : )
In the end, everything is just an extension/delay until that happens...
But, funnily enough, that's how modern MMOs have found success. An endgame/top level progression system that gets regular expansions... And, you know, it's not like these things are mutually exclusive. You can have your epic quests, and the endgame progression system both...
Not really any point made here other than we should look at end game progressions from MMOs which are realistically defined by the gearing progression model that you say you don't want.
It's not an all or nothing deal. You can take some elements and concepts and integrate them, without needing to 1:1 copy everything (particularly making it all about gear/ilvls)...
Same thing here, no real mention of what elements and concepts you're actually talking about. And again, given that the endgames you are referencing are defined by gear progression and, at least for MMOs that are sitting in the top ten right now, all other features of the games are unlocked before max level from what I can tell.
I think this is where we have to flat out agree to disagree. Both big name MMOs and IRE manage to serve several audiences/playstyles perfectly well. Like I've said 3 ish times now, I don't think adding extra gameplay at the top level is going to rain on anyone's parade if they're interested in other aspects of the game... so I'm just going to leave it at that. (Probably my last post unless/until something new comes up).
More of the same, here you actually note extra gameplay accessible at the top level. But you don't really talk about what it is.
In turn also ignoring the fact that the only real concern is about what that gameplay is. For example, if you made housing similar to the Aetolian havens and limited to max level you can be that it would "rain on the parade" of people who just want to build a house.
You're saying a lot of stuff, but your point really isn't coming across because you're not being specific and your generalised examples of other mmos are more applicable to systems that seem to be the opposite of what you appear to want.
(Hopefully a few months old doesn't count as a necro? I figured I'd continue a discussion here rather than starting another post)
The Space Pirates thread got me thinking... People joked around that if so many people want to be pirates, space will actually just be a bunch of pirates looking to hunt each other. It was a joke, but it made me think about what it would take to fill up that space with other people just minding their own business, looking to avoid the pirates, yet still have a chance to be exposed to them.
What if we offered experience, in addition to gold, for running cargo between faraway points in the sector? The gold part has been discussed several times, where you risk being attacked for the potential profits. The pirates want to attack you and take the profits for themselves. But as an added bonus (especially since you lose experience upon death), what if completing one of these runs grants you experience too? I see it as having multiple benefits:
You're not looking to kill the pirates, just avoid/outrun them. There's a source of excitement as a cargo runner to keep things from getting monotonous.
An interesting alternative to bashing
More variety of people for the pirates to attack, and many for whom a different approach would be necessary ("catch and destroy" as opposed to "win in battle")
Populates space, provides a lucrative (exp and gold wise) alternative
I guess a counterpoint could be "why as a non-com would I expose myself to this potential loss of experience, time, and gold?" And the answer would be for the potential gain of better experience, time, and gold!
This seems like a cool idea to me. Somebody care to burst my bubble and show me it's actually terrible? Otherwise it might be a neat idea that the developers can consider.
(Edit: And of course, I necro'd the wrong thread. I'll just leave this here and not necro a second one (where it would be more appropriate)
Endgame is what makes or breaks most games. Some MUDs like Dragonrealms, very few (and only recently after 20+ years) people hit level cap. For every other game I've played hitting max level is generally within reach. In either case, endgame is SO important, and is one of the key factors that makes a great game.
I personally would rather see a slow progression, and an emphasis on gradual improvements, and NO advantage just because you hit a certain level. However, that being said, there definitely needs to be a reason to stick around because of access to some stuff that you earned by reaching high level (doesn't even have to be at cap). Cosmetics are fine, areas/events, and certainly gear (but this does not need to be out of line with the general progression).
I would like to see mentorship become a part of reaching HLC that would give you some perks. This would help new folks a ton, thereby keeping the game going strong.
Not gonna lie, and this is just wishful thinking, but it'd be cool if endgame unlocked a few extra abilities for your class that don't really change the meta, but add a little something. Or maybe some skills focused around Void or Star Kith type (Nanoseer and fury being locked into their respective Kith)
Comments
The standard IRE level 100 progression really isn't the same as your typical MMO max level though, so the comparison doesn't really work.
MMOs tend to follow the model that you need to get to max level to be a complete character and the games are really worked around getting you there, once you hit that max you generally end up in gearing progression, doing content over and over to get better equipment so you can do higher level content over and over and so on until the next expac drops.
In comparison, IRE has seemed to diminish the need to hit max level, you can learn all of your abilities straight out of character creation, the differences in health/mana are there but you can work around them, and with some small exceptions you can get the best possible gear immediately (some require learning a trade first).
An IRE that followed the MMO progression model would be a very different game.
End-game progression in an MMO is ultimately about acquiring more power, that's what makes it feel like you're progressing because you're able to tackle harder content and earlier content becomes easier. (I'm gearing up right now in FFXIV incidentally, there's a pretty big gap between a fresh 70 and a geared one)
So if you're not talking about that, what sort of progression are you talking about? Which would also likely lead to questions about why it has to be a max level thing.
EDIT: Just as an aside, if Starmourn is developed to be a themepark style game (i.e everyone is intended to get to max level relatively easily) then I agree the end-game is a necessity.
But IRE MUDs are realistically sandbox MMOs, we just go in, do whatever we like, and the levelling isn't really as well defined as a themepark because max level isn't that important.
It's a proven concept generally (not for every kind of player as you imply; some will never bother even going for max level), and IRE's even already done the heavy lifting on finding an incarnation of the concept that works with their games. It can be done; it can be done without forgetting other playstyles; and I think it would be neat to see, personally.
Again, taking this concept generally doesn't mean making the game a 1:1 copy of other models and turning it into a themepark MMO, or similar...
If you do compare to another game, Warframe is a good example of something that does this without going with the WoW model. Nonlinear progression, fairly sandboxy and work towards whatever you want. If you do minmax, you'll be far more powerful than any content actually asks for. But! If you want to work on getting every last stat point you can, optimizing your build as far as you can... there are options to grind for that... And having options is nice^^
----
Probably a little bit moot though. This late into the game's development, whatever they do or don't have at max level is probably decided and at least partially worked on, even if they're being tight lipped about it...
Realistically though, there is only so much utility and customisation that you can hand out. Also, you'll likely find that some players would start complaining that there's nothing for them because they're not interested in that.
At that point, there's pressure to release mechanical/combat benefits into the system.
It's also not an implication, it's a simple fact of game design that the more important max level is the more pressure is placed on players to reach it.
Warframe might not be the best comparison because it's really just a gearing game when you get down to it and there's not much else to really do in the game (It's another one I've played a few hundred hours of)
Realistically the difficulty drawing comparisons to other games is that, since WoW, the MMO field has been dominated by the end-game/gearing progression.
Your better modern examples of alternatives are games like BDO and EVE
Also, it's potentially not given last I saw the game was planned to be released with the level capped at 70.
Have to disagree here... That not so many people do scenarios/kuva farming/raids indicates that people find more entertainment besides minmaxing/top end content and that there's more than one playstyle. Don't want to get too much more into it to stay loosely on topic though...
I think this is where we have to flat out agree to disagree. Both big name MMOs and IRE manage to serve several audiences/playstyles perfectly well. Like I've said 3 ish times now, I don't think adding extra gameplay at the top level is going to rain on anyone's parade if they're interested in other aspects of the game... so I'm just going to leave it at that. (Probably my last post unless/until something new comes up).
Anyways, I would prefer that the max level to not have a significant impact on PvP (maybe a few minor boosts, but nothing too powerful), nor for them to become described as gods or some such, especially since there is a habit of a good chunk of the playerbase becoming max level in pretty much any game with a max level (which would make such descriptions absurd). Maybe a choice of unique perks or some neat utility abilities, but nothing too flashy or powerful.
Bashing is generally just a distraction in my mind from what makes MUDs worth playing as opposed to MMOs, and having everyone out bashing instead of interacting with each other is not a good thing in my mind, so it should be kept lightly rewarded enough that people only do it beyond a certain point if they actually enjoy it. Notably, I did not get to level 100 in MKO for this reason.
(In Achaea, for instance, top level was 80 when it launched, and levels 81+ plus Dragon weren't added until post-launch.)
The comment you're responding to is about a noted behaviour where players who get to max level and don't have something of interest to them available then start arguing in favour of expansions that would interest them.
Which you seem to be disagreeing with?
But your point seems more related to the other points made about how players can feel increasing pressure to get to max level based on those extra features.
Something you're dismissing as a concern by citing games where this is an increasing concern among commentators and even game directors.
As I've repeatedly said now, putting a couple rewards for hitting the top is neat and all, but I also believe level-locking content behind something that not everyone is intended to reach is a bad idea.
Also, I believe if a system like this is intended to see consistent expansion. We'll likely see it begin to incorporate effects that have an impact on combat and class effectiveness, increasing the pressure to be max.
*shrug*
Personally I think player given RP rewards should be available and at least equal to bashing. I realize that this could be abused by some players but players also abuse bashing.
At this point I would just suggest rereading my previous posts, as I really don't have anything to say I haven't said already...
But, I know you don't agree, hence agree to disagree : )
Not really any point made here other than we should look at end game progressions from MMOs which are realistically defined by the gearing progression model that you say you don't want.
Same thing here, no real mention of what elements and concepts you're actually talking about. And again, given that the endgames you are referencing are defined by gear progression and, at least for MMOs that are sitting in the top ten right now, all other features of the games are unlocked before max level from what I can tell.
More of the same, here you actually note extra gameplay accessible at the top level. But you don't really talk about what it is.
In turn also ignoring the fact that the only real concern is about what that gameplay is.
For example, if you made housing similar to the Aetolian havens and limited to max level you can be that it would "rain on the parade" of people who just want to build a house.
You're saying a lot of stuff, but your point really isn't coming across because you're not being specific and your generalised examples of other mmos are more applicable to systems that seem to be the opposite of what you appear to want.
*shrug*
The Space Pirates thread got me thinking... People joked around that if so many people want to be pirates, space will actually just be a bunch of pirates looking to hunt each other. It was a joke, but it made me think about what it would take to fill up that space with other people just minding their own business, looking to avoid the pirates, yet still have a chance to be exposed to them.
What if we offered experience, in addition to gold, for running cargo between faraway points in the sector? The gold part has been discussed several times, where you risk being attacked for the potential profits. The pirates want to attack you and take the profits for themselves. But as an added bonus (especially since you lose experience upon death), what if completing one of these runs grants you experience too? I see it as having multiple benefits:
- You're not looking to kill the pirates, just avoid/outrun them. There's a source of excitement as a cargo runner to keep things from getting monotonous.
- An interesting alternative to bashing
- More variety of people for the pirates to attack, and many for whom a different approach would be necessary ("catch and destroy" as opposed to "win in battle")
- Populates space, provides a lucrative (exp and gold wise) alternative
I guess a counterpoint could be "why as a non-com would I expose myself to this potential loss of experience, time, and gold?" And the answer would be for the potential gain of better experience, time, and gold!This seems like a cool idea to me. Somebody care to burst my bubble and show me it's actually terrible? Otherwise it might be a neat idea that the developers can consider.
(Edit: And of course, I necro'd the wrong thread. I'll just leave this here and not necro a second one (where it would be more appropriate)
I personally would rather see a slow progression, and an emphasis on gradual improvements, and NO advantage just because you hit a certain level. However, that being said, there definitely needs to be a reason to stick around because of access to some stuff that you earned by reaching high level (doesn't even have to be at cap). Cosmetics are fine, areas/events, and certainly gear (but this does not need to be out of line with the general progression).
I would like to see mentorship become a part of reaching HLC that would give you some perks. This would help new folks a ton, thereby keeping the game going strong.