PVE

Satomi

I think we have to take into account that alien biology as well as enemy mindsims will be functioning as well. They could potentially just negate the affliction you apply naturally, so it's more productive to do damage in some isntances.

Sairys

Satomi said:

I think we have to take into account that alien biology as well as enemy mindsims will be functioning as well. They could potentially just negate the affliction you apply naturally, so it's more productive to do damage in some isntances.

Oh, like there are ways to explain away why they don't work that's not the issue really. The other games don't even really both with that and just say things do or don't work on denizens too.


I guess maybe I'm feeling a bit of a mixed message?

@Tecton's post makes it seem as though we're going to have a bunch of abilities that we can meaningfully use on denizens. Which is a pretty exciting prospect and could make bashing more interesting than it is in the other games.

On the other hand, @Aurelius is saying that they might have a purpose sometimes but generally there's no reason to use these tools and that it's less effective in most cases to actually use those tools.
Which sounds like bashing is just the same as the other games, you could do something different but it seems like it might negatively affect your bashing.


I was mostly expecting that there would be things that you can just bash if you want to, but then there are also things that you really need to use your full kit to take down, which in turn give better xp. Effectively rewarding people that take on the more challenging option.

Satomi

@Sairys I believe I read somewhere that they wanted to take the emphasis off needing to bash for xp, so getting to higher levels won't be super difficult. Elevation and Props have to be taken into account too, which means that any abilities that do that can probably be used to manipulate the field of a fight. That alone makes it less of a "press this button until you win" style thing that every other IRE seems to have going for it.

Beyond that, the biggies would have to pitch in cause I don't have as much info.

Qitorien

I hate to bring in a non-IRE game to the discussion but I really enjoyed how the ill-fated Lithmeria was handling it. PvE was really similar to PvP. The NPCs had similar skillsets to the PCs. PCs could use their skills to layer afflictions, etc, for various ends and effects. In fact, you really -couldn’t- PvE without using a lot of your skills in different ways unless you were attacking really low NPCs.

That being said, I have no idea how difficult that sort of thing might be to code or if it fits at all with SM’s theme, coding, design, flow, whatever.

Aurelius

Sairys said:

I mean sure, ratting level is one thing but I think were all wondering about the higher end.


Just repeatedly hitting the "bash" key over and over is like... soul-crushingly boring to me and why I expect bashing systems are so prevalent.

I guess I was expecting something a bit like MKO or other graphical MMOs where we'd have stuff we'd want to use to take down mobs, even stuff like... defense stripping abilities make the mob more susceptible to damage for a certain amount of time (or until they are out of combat).

Sure, and some of that stuff will be useful in longer fights, but most abilities in MKO were also basically useless against mobs. It's mostly a function of the fact that our games are PvP-first, whereas most MMOs are PvE-first. Almost every MUD is also PvE-first, which is why we only build PvP-first games. Virtually all the abilities/skills that harm someone else are designed with PvP in mind.

Ultimately, there's no real-time bashing PvE game where bashing non-hand-crafted encounters doesn't get repetitive after a couple dozen hours, and we don't have the budget to build a lot of hand-crafted encounters with custom battle logic, etc. That's the kind of thing we'd like to slowly add in over time, but definitely won't be much, if any, of it at launch.

Qitorien

Aurelius said:

Sairys said:

I mean sure, ratting level is one thing but I think were all wondering about the higher end.


Just repeatedly hitting the "bash" key over and over is like... soul-crushingly boring to me and why I expect bashing systems are so prevalent.

I guess I was expecting something a bit like MKO or other graphical MMOs where we'd have stuff we'd want to use to take down mobs, even stuff like... defense stripping abilities make the mob more susceptible to damage for a certain amount of time (or until they are out of combat).

Sure, and some of that stuff will be useful in longer fights, but most abilities in MKO were also basically useless against mobs. It's mostly a function of the fact that our games are PvP-first, whereas most MMOs are PvE-first. Almost every MUD is also PvE-first, which is why we only build PvP-first games. Virtually all the abilities/skills that harm someone else are designed with PvP in mind.

Ultimately, there's no real-time bashing PvE game where bashing non-hand-crafted encounters doesn't get repetitive after a couple dozen hours, and we don't have the budget to build a lot of hand-crafted encounters with custom battle logic, etc. That's the kind of thing we'd like to slowly add in over time, but definitely won't be much, if any, of it at launch.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it.

Tecton

I should note that while your PVE won't be as complex as a PVP fight, it will still be a lot more abilities while fighting mobs - most of our classes have strategies around layering effects and outcomes, so while you can just spam a straight damage attack, it won't be as efficient as using all of the tools at your disposal. Naturally, it comes down to what you're fighting, as Aurelius said, you wouldn't bother trying to do those sort of things on something that would likely die before you see the effects of your actions. If you're fighting something around your own level, where fights are not so trivial and one-sided, you'll definitely see advantages of experimenting with your toolkit!

TNA

I smell some epic "boss" fight honors lines...

Ranuth

Tecton said:

I should note that while your PVE won't be as complex as a PVP fight, it will still be a lot more abilities while fighting mobs - most of our classes have strategies around layering effects and outcomes, so while you can just spam a straight damage attack, it won't be as efficient as using all of the tools at your disposal. Naturally, it comes down to what you're fighting, as Aurelius said, you wouldn't bother trying to do those sort of things on something that would likely die before you see the effects of your actions. If you're fighting something around your own level, where fights are not so trivial and one-sided, you'll definitely see advantages of experimenting with your toolkit!

This is all I can ask for. 

DPierre

Ok, that is actually a MAJOR difference. I could never get into the other IRE games fully because I don't care for PvP, but that was the only time you got to use most of the awesome abilities.

Additionally, being able to practice on PvE builds confidence to eventually get into PvP, which would mean more people PvPing...

LOOOOVE it!!

Also, don't be afraid to slow combat down... 

Captain

Does this mean more of an expansion in general from the Achaean Battlerage-style CC/damage mitigating denizen 'afflicting', and cross-class combination type of PvE, or does it mean something more akin to being able to lock or conditionally instakill boss mobs that would otherwise take a long time to damage down outright? Or neither of things things, or some of both?

Xiru

I cannot wait to use abilities on mobs because it is practice. I need practice just getting my aliases set up. 

Qitorien

Captain said:

Does this mean more of an expansion in general from the Achaean Battlerage-style CC/damage mitigating denizen 'afflicting', and cross-class combination type of PvE, or does it mean something more akin to being able to lock or conditionally instakill boss mobs that would otherwise take a long time to damage down outright? Or neither of things things, or some of both?

They've said a few places that instakill skills will usually not work on mobs. They've also said that afflictions work pretty differently. I'm not sure if locking will be a thing. I'll let someone official answer more fully if they want. Since they haven't revealed any ABs or specific details, it's hard to know how it'll look for us.