People are going to communicate OOCly. Having a faction-wide discord only makes that process more transparent, not more likely.
And I am definitely NOT suggesting info should be only accessible in a discord chat. I'm suggesting that it is a really solid option for getting complicated mechanics questions answered. Always will be other ways to do that, butt Discord IS a tool and a useful one and should be in the box. See my general thoughts about gatekeeping info above if you are unsure.
Wonderful, you are still splitting information. An ooc clan or even the newbie channel accomplishes the same thing without isolating information outside of the mechanical limitations of the game. You are denying help to those who can't/won't/don't want to use discord.
BTW I use discord. I cannot deny that it is useful. If your goal is to ensure everyone has access to the same information, discord is not the solution.
If you can use a MUD you can use discord. I'm not sure how the hell anyone in the entire universe 'can't' use discord. It's basically an IRC client, except it *also* runs in browser. That's utterly ridiculous that anyone would somehow lack access to it.
Some people may not want to, @Pollivar, and that's fine. Mechanical limitations is hilarious, though. Discord is available in browser or phone and as a desktop app and has minimal requirements that any MUD players should be able to manage. 'Mechanical limitations' is a nonsense argument.
And no, you aren't 'splitting' information, @Minion. You are providing another avenue to discuss it. Like..iunno, forums?
My goal is to make available use of good tools. Nowhere did I suggest we should put info only in Discord. What I -actually- implied, for people paying attention, is that I dislike info gatekeeping like OOC clans. Put necessary info in FHELP. Discord is a more -elegant- solution than OOC clans for complex discussion because it's immediately accessible. OOC clans require an inductor. A perma-link grants anyone with access to that link immediate access to the discussion and community. Unlike an OOC clan.
The fact that you "should" be able to is not the same as "can". There was a thread about how a chrome book would struggle to run nexus alone... hell, I can't run nexus on my laptop. To blanket statement the ridiculousness of it seems a bit entitled.
Which, again, if someone is struggling to run nexus and can't access a faction discord, it would, in absolutely no way, make them lose access to info. Just -one- of the several avenues for discussing OOC information.
So, by using discord and not autoinducting into an ooc clan (which can hold clhelp files to DIY some code snippets and such) you have created disparities for those who need help and cannot or will not use discord.
Again, I am not disagreeing that discord is useful but it is not the best way to help absolutely everyone who is playing SM.
Not denying that it is a tool. Just denying that it is the best tool.
If you can use a MUD you can use discord. I'm not sure how the hell anyone in the entire universe 'can't' use discord. It's basically an IRC client, except it *also* runs in browser. That's utterly ridiculous that anyone would somehow lack access to it.
I actually don't care at all about whether discord links are shown in FHELP and I'll likely join a faction discord like I did the normal Starmourn one.
That said... I can play Starmourn from China, but I can't access discord without a VPN. If I have a VPN on, starmourn is hilariously laggy and inconsistent. So there are situations where somebody has access to Nexus but not discord.
Granted, I may be the only person right now to whom this applies. I just wanted to chime in and say that there might be something like this going on for somebody else, however unlikely.
If you can use a MUD you can use discord. I'm not sure how the hell anyone in the entire universe 'can't' use discord. It's basically an IRC client, except it *also* runs in browser. That's utterly ridiculous that anyone would somehow lack access to it.
I actually don't care at all about whether discord links are shown in FHELP and I'll likely join a faction discord like I did the normal Starmourn one.
That said... I can play Starmourn from China, but I can't access discord without a VPN. If I have a VPN on, starmourn is hilariously laggy and inconsistent. So there are situations where somebody has access to Nexus but not discord.
Granted, I may be the only person right now to whom this applies. I just wanted to chime in and say that there might be something like this going on for somebody else, however unlikely.
That's good to know.
@Minion - Again, in no way is Discord being suggested as the only or even primary way to get information? I'm still wondering why this is the hill you are choosing. The debate is about whether or not we should have a link to Discord in an FHELP and if that's immersion breaking and, within that, whether or not a faction Discord can be/is useful. Everyone not being able or wanting to use Discord does not make it not useful. I do not think information should be only made available in the Discord, or that OOC questions should only be asked in Discord. And I've stated that multiple times. There remain ways to ask in game, tells, the existing defense clan Grimscar set up, asking for someone on FT go give guidance directly on a class or 'reflexes' or on how the economy works.
It is -a- tool among a -set- of tools that can -expand- our capacity to be a helpful community and maintain immersion. I have beat this horse into a pancake, so if you still don't get my point, iunno what else to say about it.
I just wanna jump in and defend Chromebooks again. Mine is all I use outside my phone. It works fine. Discord works fine, concurrently. While browsing the forums, chatting on Messenger and making corvette spreadsheets in Drive...
Not wanting to go ooc or use another program is fine and even understandable but most people have access to Discord.
All this comes down to an inherent obligation to use discord if it's put into an FHELP file. Directing them out of game to get help when there are players in game willing to help creates a disconnect. If they can't get the help from NEWBIE or their organization in game with players actually playing the game, why would we direct them to what amounts to another chatroom to find it? Potentially, they'll miss out on connections in game that could have developed in character.
I personally don't like the idea of directing new players out of game to find help.
That is my hill.
I see you on yours. Have fun over there.
EDIT: For the record, I agreed to Discord's usefulness multiple times. I feel like you are missing that point.
It's like this. College exists, and no one is technically required to get a degree and it's technically possible for everyone to get a degree, but the reality is quite, quite different.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
Except Discord should never be required. Ever. Period. If it is, your org sucks at running itself. And your people suck at being able to stay IC while explaining things, and should probably let other people take over.
Right! If Discord servers become so ingrained into Starmourn (to the point of advertising it in FHELPs), then it becomes a pseudo-requirement. "Not really required", but if you want to be fully in-the-know in your faction, you need it.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
I personally stay out of 98% of OOC communication other than the forums. For basic learning advice and such FHELP is fine. I've been in all of one OOC clan I didn't find horribly immersion breaking - one in Achaea for coding shit that only allowed that. It wasn't people chatting about RL things, just occasional questions and answers. On the other hand, the last few times I've tried to play Imperian the entire org was in an OOC group chatting and IC talk on CT was nonexistent. So yea, do what you want, but I think game info should be as in game and in character as possible.
I think a lot of people are missing the entire point of staying IC in public areas. It has nothing to do with convenience or making it easy for newbies, it is about simple, plain old respect. This is an RP-enforced mud, people come here to RP, so who are we to ruin it for them by bringing OOC things to strictly IC areas? If things are too hard for newbies to get in to (and I am certainly not arguing that there isn't a steep learning curve) then that is on the admin to provide better teaching methods when people first start. It is, however, not up to us to ruin a role playing environment by yelling over FT or on the news boards about a Discord clan. That's it, there's nothing more to it, it's just plain old fashioned respect.
P.S. This is coming from a guy that really doesn't spend a whole lot of time role playing, but still has the maturity level to not ruin it for others.
I think a lot of people are missing the entire point of staying IC in public areas. It has nothing to do with convenience or making it easy for newbies, it is about simple, plain old respect. This is an RP-enforced mud, people come here to RP, so who are we to ruin it for them by bringing OOC things to strictly IC areas? If things are too hard for newbies to get in to (and I am certainly not arguing that there isn't a steep learning curve) then that is on the admin to provide better teaching methods when people first start. It is, however, not up to us to ruin a role playing environment by yelling over FT or on the news boards about a Discord clan. That's it, there's nothing more to it, it's just plain old fashioned respect.
P.S. This is coming from a guy that really doesn't spend a whole lot of time role playing, but still has the maturity level to not ruin it for others.
To my understanding Starmourn is RP encouraged, rather than required, from these sources here: https://www.starmourn.com/roleplaying/ and in "Help Roleplay". Other than that I generally agree that being IC in public areas is a nice atmosphere to cultivate. However, there should be resources available for players who want to learn more about their class and the game. The issue seems to be that most people only have access to 2 channels, City & Newbie, so discussion mechanics will invariably flow through.
To roleplay means to play a role. In the context of Starmourn, roleplaying means that you play as your character, similar to acting on a stage or in a film.
Roleplaying is encouraged, but not required, in Starmourn. However, in order to maintain an immersive experience, we
expect you to stay in-character (IC) as much as possible and not seek to disrupt other peoples' experience with out-of-character talk.
What's the difference between roleplaying and staying in-character?
Staying in-character (IC) is mostly about NOT being out-of-character (OOC). Talking about real life, other games, the settings in your MUD client, etc. are all examples of being OOC. Please stay IC on public channels and in public places. You can be OOC in tells or in less public places, as long as the other people around you don't mind.
It is RP encouraged, rather than enforced, but staying IC in certain situations is still a rule. FT for instance. Essentially you can be as OOC as you want privately.
@Eshe, @saturnine Yes I understand those, but I was raising the problem that when people want to find out more about some part of the game, there is no in-built OOC channel (apart from perhaps newbie) for that to be discussed. So given that there are no in-game methods to talk about the game itself, I don't think its surprising that FT sometimes has these things come up.
Maybe the solution is to create a global OOC channel, or even separate class channels which are OOC friendly.
We don't need to encourage OOC interaction further. Discords are already around, and we have the forums as a resource. This is an RP game, and while you aren't required to roleplay, you really lose something when you treat it as a chatroom. Getting help can go through Newbie. Class channels would be useful for mechanics, or a monitored Mechanics channel to keep deeper discussions away from Newbie. But those still need to serve a clear function beyond shooting the breeze.
How exactly is discussing how skills and such work, an OOC thing?
Yeah if you use this attack, their muscular subsystems become damaged. Then you can follow up with this one to further debilitate them and possibly capitalise on it with this attack depending how they react.
Discussing exact numbers and such is one thing (which is towing the line), but explaining how your skills work and how to best use them is just... Not OOC.
Gonna reiterate what I said above, wherein if you can't discuss things ICly then maybe address that instead of claiming something needs an OOC outlet. Poke them an OOC tell to clarify if you really need to.
@Maruna I hope neither you nor anyone else think I was saying discussing combat strategies is OOC. That can be all over FT, though I do think combat clans would be preferable. I was only talking about blatant shit like scripting.
No. Just the general feel people give off, when it comes to talking about anything combat related in-game. I've legitimately had people get in a tiff because I dared mention something 'costing 10% of your sanity to use' in says.
It's happened across every IRE game, the whole "it's easier to discuss combat OOCly so talking about combat is obviously OOC" mindset a lot of people have.
I've legitimately had people get in a tiff because I dared mention something 'costing 10% of your sanity to use' in says.
Sounds like some elitist bullshit to me, and that's coming from a strict roleplayer. Not sure why people insist on being "that guy", but choose your battles, people.
I've legitimately had people get in a tiff because I dared mention something 'costing 10% of your sanity to use' in says.
Sounds like some elitist bullshit to me, and that's coming from a strict roleplayer. Not sure why people insist on being "that guy", but choose your battles, people.
Oh it's not a bother. Been playing these games long enough to not let those types bother me. Told them to piss off if they didn't like it, then continued the conversation.
Comments
And I am definitely NOT suggesting info should be only accessible in a discord chat. I'm suggesting that it is a really solid option for getting complicated mechanics questions answered. Always will be other ways to do that, butt Discord IS a tool and a useful one and should be in the box. See my general thoughts about gatekeeping info above if you are unsure.
And no, you aren't 'splitting' information, @Minion. You are providing another avenue to discuss it. Like..iunno, forums?
My goal is to make available use of good tools. Nowhere did I suggest we should put info only in Discord. What I -actually- implied, for people paying attention, is that I dislike info gatekeeping like OOC clans. Put necessary info in FHELP. Discord is a more -elegant- solution than OOC clans for complex discussion because it's immediately accessible. OOC clans require an inductor. A perma-link grants anyone with access to that link immediate access to the discussion and community. Unlike an OOC clan.
So?
Again, I am not disagreeing that discord is useful but it is not the best way to help absolutely everyone who is playing SM.
Not denying that it is a tool. Just denying that it is the best tool.
That said... I can play Starmourn from China, but I can't access discord without a VPN. If I have a VPN on, starmourn is hilariously laggy and inconsistent. So there are situations where somebody has access to Nexus but not discord.
Granted, I may be the only person right now to whom this applies. I just wanted to chime in and say that there might be something like this going on for somebody else, however unlikely.
@Minion - Again, in no way is Discord being suggested as the only or even primary way to get information? I'm still wondering why this is the hill you are choosing. The debate is about whether or not we should have a link to Discord in an FHELP and if that's immersion breaking and, within that, whether or not a faction Discord can be/is useful. Everyone not being able or wanting to use Discord does not make it not useful. I do not think information should be only made available in the Discord, or that OOC questions should only be asked in Discord. And I've stated that multiple times. There remain ways to ask in game, tells, the existing defense clan Grimscar set up, asking for someone on FT go give guidance directly on a class or 'reflexes' or on how the economy works.
It is -a- tool among a -set- of tools that can -expand- our capacity to be a helpful community and maintain immersion. I have beat this horse into a pancake, so if you still don't get my point, iunno what else to say about it.
Not wanting to go ooc or use another program is fine and even understandable but most people have access to Discord.
I personally don't like the idea of directing new players out of game to find help.
That is my hill.
I see you on yours. Have fun over there.
EDIT: For the record, I agreed to Discord's usefulness multiple times. I feel like you are missing that point.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
- Ilyos (August 2019)
P.S. This is coming from a guy that really doesn't spend a whole lot of time role playing, but still has the maturity level to not ruin it for others.
91.6 IC, OOC, and Roleplaying
To roleplay means to play a role. In the context of Starmourn, roleplaying means that you play as your character, similar to acting on a stage or in a film.
Roleplaying is encouraged, but not required, in Starmourn. However, in order to maintain an immersive experience, we
expect you to stay in-character (IC) as much as possible and not seek to disrupt other peoples' experience with out-of-character talk.
What's the difference between roleplaying and staying in-character?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Staying in-character (IC) is mostly about NOT being out-of-character (OOC). Talking about real life, other games, the settings in your MUD client, etc. are all examples of being OOC. Please stay IC on public channels and in public places. You can be OOC in tells or in less public places, as long as the other people around you don't mind.
Specific places to stay IC
--------------------------
- shouts/yells
- news posts
- faction tells
- dynasty tells
- crew channels
- some clans
Maybe the solution is to create a global OOC channel, or even separate class channels which are OOC friendly.