Last Know Loc and possessor of INR

RheaGhek

Make it so that you can see your last known INR in the list no matter what, including it's possessor at time of dissappearing. Maybe having the details fade after about a three hour span RL time.

Makes no sense from a logical standpoint why this wouldn't be built in. So you can only catch a thief while they've got physical hands on the product? Why can't I have some other way of tracking them down.

Tye

Lol.    

RheaGhek

Lol, I'm asking for a way to legitimately generate conflict, and your response is lol.

Please, kindly explain in full your criticism or amusement.

Tye

3 hour timer would make people reasonably assume that if X grabs your INR, you have PK rights on X for a minimum of 3 hours. Possibly longer, if they see it near the end and remember. IF this gets implemented, maybe a 5 minute timer would be appropriate, in case they grabbed it right after you died and you didn't have a chance to MS TRACK before you cloned, and there would HAVE to be clarification on how long you can PK someone after they grabbed your INR or else you'd get those people that "cause count" (as it was called in Achaea) that would PK you randomly and then be like "Well you grabbed my INR two months ago when I died at <place> so this is justified."

RheaGhek

The attribution would be the timer, for as long as I can see that you've stolen my INR is as long as I'd have permission to generate conflict with you. Whether politically, socially, or physically based.

You stole something of mine. I have right to recompense that item. The problem is when someone can grab an INR and scan it before you can even get to the cloning bay. Because the zones are so small and densely populated.

Tye

RheaGhek said:

You stole something of mine. I have right to recompense that item. 

No, you didn't get "stolen from". You saw a choice, took a risky option (possibility of dying), and lost the choice, and the INR is the consequence. And in the long run, it's a rather minor consequence - you're not losing gear or held marks, just a couple mobs worth of bashing. If you were walking through a mall or something in RL and found a $20 on the ground and pocketed it, how would you feel if three hours later someone showed up at your door, beat the fuck out of you, then took their $20 and left your $20 on the ground (or took it themselves!) while you went to the hospital? 
I'm not saying that INR jacking should be safe from PVP, but a three hour window is ludicrous, and laughable. Hence my initial "Lol".

BadPenguin

Your example is bad. If you had someone steal your phone and tracked it with trackmyiphone and some pawnshop had it you'd still take your phone back.

Tye

But if you asked the pawn shop for it back and they said no, would you then proceed to beat the hell out of the owner and take his phone? Because that's the point of this, in essence. "I want to know who took my INR so I can ask for it back and have reasonable reason to PK them if they don't give it back". It's not like if I scan your INR and you come to me 5 minutes later I can be like "Oh you want it back? Here ya go." It's gone. So what's the recourse in that case? If it's legitimately "Oh I just wanna ask for it back", we all know that if you were getting your INR back it'd still be on the ground, or someone would reach out to you if they had it.
So the only recourse at that point is PK. Or walk away, but then what's even the point of a 3hr timer. Someone's scanning it if you haven't come knocking for it in three hours.

Note: I know that in RL you'd just call the cops on the pawn shop, but there are no space cops that I know of in SM that will come fine me if I refuse to give back an INR.

ETA: I've argued my point here so I'll leave it at this: a three hour window for retaliation PK is too large to sustain without griefers taking advantage. If this idea gets implemented, that's cool, just please make the timer more reasonable and make it readily apparent what the constraints are for the retaliation PK so that people don't stack "cause" and just go on a rampage mercing people months after the fact. 

BadPenguin

No, since there are no space cops you take the law into your own hands. If cops are not available in real life you are legally allowed to do the same. I'd imagine in space, when we have technology to make these chips. We'd have the technology to them down. Obviously it needs to be a higher skill but it should exist.

RheaGhek

Tye said:

But if you asked the pawn shop for it back and they said no, would you then proceed to beat the hell out of the owner and take his phone? Because that's the point of this, in essence. "I want to know who took my INR so I can ask for it back and have reasonable reason to PK them if they don't give it back". It's not like if I scan your INR and you come to me 5 minutes later I can be like "Oh you want it back? Here ya go." It's gone. So what's the recourse in that case? If it's legitimately "Oh I just wanna ask for it back", we all know that if you were getting your INR back it'd still be on the ground, or someone would reach out to you if they had it.
So the only recourse at that point is PK. Or walk away, but then what's even the point of a 3hr timer. Someone's scanning it if you haven't come knocking for it in three hours.

Note: I know that in RL you'd just call the cops on the pawn shop, but there are no space cops that I know of in SM that will come fine me if I refuse to give back an INR.

ETA: I've argued my point here so I'll leave it at this: a three hour window for retaliation PK is too large to sustain without griefers taking advantage. If this idea gets implemented, that's cool, just please make the timer more reasonable and make it readily apparent what the constraints are for the retaliation PK so that people don't stack "cause" and just go on a rampage mercing people months after the fact. 

You are speaking as if we have other recourse? What other recourse do you have? In the case where someone has taken my stuff. That I spent time to earn, it shouldn't and doesn't matter if I dropped my wallet. Or hell, got shanked and my wallet or phone was on the curb after I was dragged away in a body bag or to the hospital.

Is your instinct to pick it up and empty the contents of a wallet like that, not seeking to do any just or moral thing with it, because that's a sensible choice. After all more profit for you. From an RP sense, taking the INRs makes absolutely no sense. You literally rip them from inside a corpse, Does all that sound sane to you? If yes, you're a psychopath. Speaking literally and not at all with hyperbole, you have a lack of normal human conscientiousness and morality. 

Using your human centric logic INR's create a situation that only encourages some form of out of character RP from most players at this point. And we'd be better off right now simply disabling INR's, and just having a flat or percentage XP penalty that can't be restored. Because as it is, it is encouraging uncharacteristic immoral play that should be OOC for all but the most of alien of races.

More than that, more than the human psychopathy inherent in simply grabbing someones mental implant containing bits of their life recorded inside of it and pillaging it for fun and profit. You have a wonderous fact that again there is no recourse, and there are races where the standard measure of something being stolen should be to track that fucker down and make them pay in some way. Whether it be monetarily, or in the form of physical punishment like a clone or even in some cases a day of pranks and practical jokes.

We aren't humans, well most of use aren't and shouldn't be. Don't act like human manners and morality truly matter for this point.


Finally, Tye said:

RheaGhek said:

You stole something of mine. I have right to recompense that item. 

No, you didn't get "stolen from". You saw a choice, took a risky option (possibility of dying), and lost the choice, and the INR is the consequence. And in the long run, it's a rather minor consequence - you're not losing gear or held marks, just a couple mobs worth of bashing. If you were walking through a mall or something in RL and found a $20 on the ground and pocketed it, how would you feel if three hours later someone showed up at your door, beat the fuck out of you, then took their $20 and left your $20 on the ground (or took it themselves!) while you went to the hospital? 
I'm not saying that INR jacking should be safe from PVP, but a three hour window is ludicrous, and laughable. Hence my initial "Lol".

Who are you to dictate what I consider my property in character. A three hour window is logical, because I need to be able to prove it in a reasonable manner if I'm say a Shen and need to go after the person politically and socially. And it provides a clear delineation of safe time to assault and against the rules, what is not clear about this, instances of Cause stacking would need to result in harsh punishment because that sounds like bullshit.. Three hours is three days in game. That's a resonable and logical statute of limitations for reporting a robbery.

Beyond that... It's not a 20 dollar bill, it's an easily identifiable piece of technology that I can track in my head from the moment I wake up to the moment it is scanned or I scan it back into my head.

TextWench

In b4 artifact INR LOCK - This device adds a sensor lock that requires an ID exchange before it can be scanned. Thus allowing the original possessor of the INR to note who took possession of it's valuable data.  300 credits. 

Jonathin

No thanks on this. You just carelessly left it there. Finders keepers.

RheaGhek

Yes, carelessly left corpse lying around for 30 seconds. While I cloned and took a taxi frantically back as fast as I could. To try and retrieve it. After dying to a 4 second lag spike while my support command was entered but not sent to the server yet.

That's certainly careless. And this is exactly what happened earlier today to me.

Jonathin

Yeah, like I said. Carelessly left it lying about

RheaGhek

Explain. And go over the definition of Carelessly for me.

Maruna

You didn't get stolen from. Your corpse was on the ground.
That's one rule that's remained the same IRE-wide, practically since IRE's inception. If something is on the ground, then it doesn't belong to anybody except the first person to pick it up.
The other one is that once a source of conflict is over, then it's over. Once your INR's been scanned, then the source is gone. 3 hours is definitely too long, by this metric. 5 minutes is more than enough time to get back, if you're cloning to an entirely different planet and it takes longer than 5 to get back then that's your own problem really.

Jonathin

I'm not a dictionary, I'm a scoundrel.

BadPenguin

He's trolling because he wants to farm corpses and do less work. 

RheaGhek

Maruna said:

You didn't get stolen from. Your corpse was on the ground.
That's one rule that's remained the same IRE-wide, practically since IRE's inception. If something is on the ground, then it doesn't belong to anybody except the first person to pick it up.
The other one is that once a source of conflict is over, then it's over. Once your INR's been scanned, then the source is gone. 3 hours is definitely too long, by this metric. 5 minutes is more than enough time to get back, if you're cloning to an entirely different planet and it takes longer than 5 to get back then that's your own problem really.

Has any other game had an xp recovery mechanic like this? Where it can be stolen?

Maruna

RheaGhek said:

Has any other game had an xp recovery mechanic like this? Where it can be stolen?

They all have other things that can be stolen if you die. It's no different. If it's on the ground, it's not yours. Die less, or get back faster.

Tye

@RheaGhek If you have a personal problem with me because I disagree with your idea, take it up with me in a message, not go off in a public forum post. I'm sorry you took it so personally, I just think your idea is ludicrous. 

RheaGhek

Maruna said:

RheaGhek said:

Maruna said:

You didn't get stolen from. Your corpse was on the ground.
That's one rule that's remained the same IRE-wide, practically since IRE's inception. If something is on the ground, then it doesn't belong to anybody except the first person to pick it up.
The other one is that once a source of conflict is over, then it's over. Once your INR's been scanned, then the source is gone. 3 hours is definitely too long, by this metric. 5 minutes is more than enough time to get back, if you're cloning to an entirely different planet and it takes longer than 5 to get back then that's your own problem really.

Has any other game had an xp recovery mechanic like this? Where it can be stolen?

They all have other things that can be stolen if you die. It's no different. If it's on the ground, it's not yours.

Does not follow. I'm fine losing junk, to be fair, this is just the INR I'm talking about. And the ability to have progress removed by potentially out of character actions by other PCs. And not myself.

You require a specific command to retrieve an INR off a corpse. This does not hold to the logic of it just being dropped on the floor for anyone to take.

And if it is dropped on the floor for anyone to take, why keep the persons name on it.

This is likely intended to be a conflict driver. It's not like losing your shit in other games. It does not follow the same mechanics. Thus it clearly cannot be held under the same rules.

More than that, where is this rule stated? Or is it player convention? Why would this rule follow if there's a different stircter set of PvP rules in this game than the other games.

Skara

We're not talking about 0.5% XP or something like that.  It's a chip with someone's memories, physically implanted into their body.  The claim of ownership here is not vague.  It's that person's memories.  If someone robs my corpse and takes my memories to claim as their own, you better bet I have good reason to hunt them down.  And that should be a common enough sentiment that the technology to do so would exist.

If you're hurrying to get it pulled from the corpse and scanned before they can track you down, then you already know it's wrong.

Not to say you shouldn't, but actions should have consequences.

RheaGhek

Tye said:

@RheaGhek If you have a personal problem with me because I disagree with your idea, take it up with me in a message, not go off in a public forum post. I'm sorry you took it so personally, I just think your idea is ludicrous. 

Where did I attack you personally or imply I had personal problems with you?

I had problems with mocking any suggestion, I would react the same in another persons thread as I have in my own, were I to see ANYONE respond to a genuine suggestion with, "Lol."

More than that, do try to counter my arguments and not imply I made personal attacks. That's a low path and is an attempt to discredit me and not my arguments.

Maruna

RheaGhek said:

Does not follow. I'm fine losing junk, to be fair, this is just the INR I'm talking about. And the ability to have progress removed by potentially out of character actions by other PCs. And not myself.

How's it an out of character action? They took something off your corpse, that seems pretty IC.
You require a specific command to retrieve an INR off a corpse. This does not hold to the logic of it just being dropped on the floor for anyone to take.
You require specific commands to pick up everything.
And if it is dropped on the floor for anyone to take, why keep the persons name on it.
Items need identifiers to be able to be retrieved in the first place.
This is likely intended to be a conflict driver. It's not like losing your shit in other games. It does not follow the same mechanics. Thus it clearly cannot be held under the same rules.
If it was, then there'd be more mechanics surrounding it as a conflict driver.
More than that, where is this rule stated? Or is it player convention? Why would this rule follow if there's a different stircter set of PvP rules in this game than the other games.
There's not a stricter set. It's the exact same set as other games.

Tye

RheaGhek said:

More than that, do try to counter my arguments and not imply I made personal attacks. That's a low path and is an attempt to discredit me and not my arguments.

Tye said:

ETA: I've argued my point here so I'll leave it at this: a three hour window for retaliation PK is too large to sustain without griefers taking advantage. If this idea gets implemented, that's cool, just please make the timer more reasonable and make it readily apparent what the constraints are for the retaliation PK so that people don't stack "cause" and just go on a rampage mercing people months after the fact. 

RheaGhek

Maruna said:

RheaGhek said:

Does not follow. I'm fine losing junk, to be fair, this is just the INR I'm talking about. And the ability to have progress removed by potentially out of character actions by other PCs. And not myself.

How's it an out of character action? They took something off your corpse, that seems pretty IC.

OOC as in, acting out of line with what a character in the universe would do. Using player motivations rather than character motivations. This should be obvious from context.

You require a specific command to retrieve an INR off a corpse. This does not hold to the logic of it just being dropped on the floor for anyone to take.
You require specific commands to pick up everything.
Notice massive pile of junk.
get 50 junk

notice corpse
get inr from corpse
mindsim scan inr

Two commands vs 1 for 50. And completely different from a thematic perspective.

And if it is dropped on the floor for anyone to take, why keep the persons name on it.
Items need identifiers to be able to be retrieved in the first place.
That's beside the point I'm talking about if you look INR you see the persons name who you took it off of. When you mindsim scan INR I think, but I'm not certain, you get a prompt to confirm.

Anyway are you even going to address my points or just point out obvious things adjacent to my points.

This is likely intended to be a conflict driver. It's not like losing your shit in other games. It does not follow the same mechanics. Thus it clearly cannot be held under the same rules.
If it was, then there'd be more mechanics surrounding it as a conflict driver. 

Perhaps you're talking around my points to avoid addressing them.

More than that, where is this rule stated? Or is it player convention? Why would this rule follow if there's a different stircter set of PvP rules in this game than the other games.
There's not a stricter set. It's the exact same set as other games.

You didn't address my point here either, very surprising.

RheaGhek

Tye said:

RheaGhek said:

More than that, do try to counter my arguments and not imply I made personal attacks. That's a low path and is an attempt to discredit me and not my arguments.

Tye said:

ETA: I've argued my point here so I'll leave it at this: a three hour window for retaliation PK is too large to sustain without griefers taking advantage. If this idea gets implemented, that's cool, just please make the timer more reasonable and make it readily apparent what the constraints are for the retaliation PK so that people don't stack "cause" and just go on a rampage mercing people months after the fact. 

Refusal to address flaws in an argument doesn't make an argument any less flawed.

It just makes someone stubborn.

Anyway I'll leave it at this, you posted a response in a public forum, and then expected to have the final word. That is literally not how the internet works. The free exchange of information, is basically a foundation of it's culture. Albeit one eroded by the facebooks and twitters and, I would say tumblr here, but it's currently dying. So instead I'll go with certain subreddits out there. This is something that unfortunately you don't get to choose. You posted an opinion to the wild. And it was open to observance and critique, I would hope I've kept that critique polite. I have endeavored too at very least.

Maruna

RheaGhek said:

OOC as in, acting out of line with what a character in the universe would do. Using player motivations rather than character motivations. This should be obvious from context.

Don't presume to know how mine, or someone else's, character would act.
Two commands vs 1 for 50. And completely different from a thematic perspective.
Junk isn't the only thing that can be picked up off the ground. JUNK SELL if you wanna go that route, same scenario; one retrieves the item, the other 'consumes' the item.

That's beside the point I'm talking about if you look INR you see the persons name who you took it off of. When you mindsim scan INR I think, but I'm not certain, you get a prompt to confirm.
It's not beside the point. It having someone's name is irrelevant; by the very nature of the game mechanics, if it's on the ground then it's not yours.
Anyway are you even going to address my points or just point out obvious things adjacent to my points.

Your 'points' have been addressed. You just don't like the answers.
You didn't address my point here either, very surprising.

See above for the remainder of your post, since it was the same answer.

RheaGhek said:

 That is literally not how the internet works. The free exchange of information, is basically a foundation of it's culture.

Lol. You literally just tried doing that. Literally.