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Death
Kix
Member Posts: 25 ✭✭
Browsing through the Starmourn resources I wasn't able to find anything definitive:
How does the game handle player death?
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https://wiki.starmourn.com/Death
Jin
VOTE FOR STARMOURN
if there's no kittens in space
I'm going on a rampage
TectonToday at 2:17 PM
They're called w'hoorn, Groot
sets out a saucer of milk
"They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
Edit: I do agree that EXP penalties on death are boring and I have always ignored them completely. On the other hand I do not have a genius idea about how to solve the problem of how to deal with the mechanics of in game death that would appeal to the majority of people and style of IRE games. Sad face.
You see evidence of this even in the way that targeted emotes are handled. RPIs refer to your character in the third-person, no matter whose perspective it's from; IRE/balance MUDs serve up the story to each audience of one in second-person. You attack X, X attacks you. Dying in IRE games is being a loser. It's being dunked on. Nobody wants to be that guy. It isn't just your character who loses a fight, it's you. Can you imagine the butthurt if you were to add completely losing your character to that?
Speaking of butthurt though, I think people really underestimate the humiliation of defeat. Nobody likes losing/dying. Saying you want an XP penalty because you want death to hurt is nonsense. Death already upsets people. What an XP penalty does is discourage people.
MKO had its fair share of butthurt but what it also had was a higher level of player-engagement in PvP compared to any other IRE MUD I've played. If you were a non-com on MKO, you were the weirdo. In other IREs, that's the norm; you're either the baddest of asses, or you let those few true badasses fight your battles for you. PvPers *cough* Killers *cough* love to cry 'omggg no one engages in PvP any more this game suuuucks u r all a bunch of pussies!' yet ironically they also seem to be the most vocal advocates of making death/loss as humiliating and painful as possible. It's counterproductive. The reason MKO had such a healthy PvP atmosphere compared to other IRE games is you honestly had very little to lose. If you suck and die a lot, well it's not like you lost more than 5 minutes of your time waiting for rez; you wouldn't have had any warpoints to lose in the first place (different, parallel system) but you did help the better combatants in your city by serving as good cannon-fodder. But if you win? You stand a chance of gaining a bunch of warpoints for a lucky kill-shot, and glory from your city for those little David vs. Goliath moment. Speaking as someone who always sucked at combat on MKO, no one ever hated or criticised me for it, because I was always game to roll the dice anyway. Opponents were happy for an easy target and allies were happy that at least I'm trying.
We should have that in Starmourn. A healthy spirit of competition that lets you engage at any level — because what have you got to lose? — rather than making you feel like if you can't be the best, there's no point in trying at all, because you'll only be hurting and embarrassing yourself. Negative incentives (like permadeath and XP loss) shouldn't be seen as cornerstones of a competitive environment. They are antithetical to it. Death hurts on RPIs and carries consequence because death is supposed to be rare. Do we want death and consequently combat to be rare on Starmourn?
"They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
I, personally, do not get humiliated by defeat. The very, very rare times I pvp, I expect to lose, so there is no humiliation. Losing in PvE is usually a solo thing, so what's to get humiliated about? But, as I pointed out, that's a personal opinion, and not one I would attempt to paint all "people" with.
I, for one, want a mechanical penalty. I don't care if it is XP, but it seems to work, and has for almost 2 decades across various games I've played. Again, I said "for one", admitting that my stance is not universally accepted.
The "some people" or "people like me" comes in again with the statement of "death already upsets people". That is entirely subjective and far from universal. The same applies to "what an XP penalty does is discourage people". For some, it is energizing, possibly even more so if given a chance to get it back, like with these corpse runs that the devs spelled out to get back your "INR". https://www.starmourn.com/2017/10/12/death-in-starmourn/
Assuming that certain points of view apply to all is a good way to alienate sections of a playerbase. A better way to go about it, is for the devs to decide what kind of game they want to make, be open and upfront about it, and then not change horses midstream. That way no one feels blindsided or mistreated, and the folks that want that style are happy and the ones that can deal with are content. The ones that don't, well, they don't have anyone but themselves to blame because it was never a secret or surprise as to how it was going to work.
In my experience though, most people that are timid about pvp seem more scared of losing not because of the exp, but some other reasons - I suspect a common one is that they feel shame when they lose.
Breaking free of the mindset that pvp death is something to avoid at all cost isn't easy, but is a liberating experience that I recommend. It will open the game up for you.
If you're someone that has been too attached to your character's reputation to get into pvp (and the losses that come with learning how), consider changing it up in Starmourn. We're all starting equal here, no one has a reputation to uphold, and you have all the time in the world to play the fully established character with a reputation later. Give it a shot.
MKO, the IRE MUD I played the longest (and was a somewhat active mid-range PvPer in), had some stellar players like Akaxi and Raelyr who were not only incredibly skilled, but also incredibly personable, approachable, welcoming and graceful in their victories. I have fond memories of Akaxi asking my character for a duel — he never jumped anyone, to my knowledge, only followed them to demand a fight — which undoubtedly I would lose, but he would afterwards politely thank me and offer respect for my willingness to engage. Contrast this with the sadly more common attitude of following up with a yell/shout rubbing it in to tell everyone what a loser so-and-so is and how they really can't fight and/or used cheap tactics or are an embarrassment to the org they lead or whatever else. It's everyone's responsibility to make competition sporting and welcoming, and to remove the stigma of defeat.
"They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
If I could, I'd like to add one more. The people that simply don't enjoy it. I don't want that much stress/excitement/adrenaline in my game. I'm here to relax, not kick off my fight-or-flight reflexes. So I avoid PvP, as every time I have done it, I've found it to be very intense.
Not worried about losing anything, shame isn't involved, I just don't find PvP to be fun. I'm guessing I'm not the only one.
that means you fall into the category that doesn’t find exp too precious to risk losing. The fact you don’t enjoy the pvp is a separate thing entirely.
@Kestrel
Those people will talk shit whether you fight them or not. Some people are just arseholes. Run your own race. Remember this: “Other people’s opinion of me is none of my business.” - I forget who I am quoting but this has helped me in life.
Two: This is somewhat related. I never understood the idea of 'tanks' in Achaea. A 'tank' would get charged depending on the amount of people that died. So if my city was being raided only the strongest were supposed to defend. Now, the city still encouraged new players and non-PvPers to help in defense but they knew it would ultimately lead to the enemy winning more quickly. I absolutely hated this and I really think @Kestrel is on to something.
Please don't make ANY mechanics that might hold people back from PvPing if you want it to be a healthy PvP environment for new players or just players who want to participate. The learning curve is steep enough, not to mention artefact gaps.
It's not free, just because you're not spending cash.
I haven't been involved in any IRE MUDs since MKO shut down, but I was feeling nostalgic today and thought I'd skim the other IRE forums to see some of the old threads discussing MKO's final days. I stumbled across this thread in the forum search and because my character was mentioned I thought I'd respond to say it warms my heart to be remembered so fondly. So, thanks, @Kestrel!
And while I'm at it I'll say hello to any other MKO vets who remember Akaxi or my admin name, Ka-hooli. I hope everyone is enjoying Starmourn!
Good to see you around, Akaxi! Don't be a stranger now, we'd love to have you around! (This is your contemporary Prandur saying hi)