Ascension class?

Changu

Will there be anything like Achaean Dragons in Starmourn?
I'm hoping not.  I don't want to feel forced into taking on generic transhumanoid cloudform because it gets me a hefty bonus to bashing efficiency or whatnot.  
    

Errant

While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, I would suggest that just because the bonus is there doesn't mean you have to use it. I'm here for the RP, though, so y'know. I'll show myself to the corner. 

Changu

Yeah Errant, I feel the same way about the RP, but then I'd still get this nagging feeling that I'm missing out on something.

Malash

Pretty sure they've said that at least at launch, there won't be anything like this.

bairloch

I think there was some question of how it would fit in the RP. We suggested android bodies or something to make us immortal. They said nothing at launch.

Squeakums

I could totally get behind android bodies as the "ascension form", but just the fact that many would not feel the same way makes me feel that not having such a system altogether might be a better alternative. Or that it's varied enough that there's something for everybody, but that's obviously so much extra work.

So I will continue to be a frustrated transhumanist (or not, depending on the aesthetics of wetwiring) for now.

Zerva

Ascension classes for classes sounds kinda cool. Like a Fury able to ignite their bodies and become grossly incandescent, Nanoseer become ghostlike with a cloud of nanites rapidly forming together into spears or shields to automatically defend, Engineers go a level beyond to start mechanizing their own bodies with augmentation to allow easier tool use and device communication.

I don't think I'd want any SINGLE ascension class that would erase my class's flavor. Maybe generic it slightly so a kith user can unlock the old form of kith or just open everyone up to cybernetics/learning some kith once ascending?

Slander

Yea, I like Aetolia/Lusternia handled it but Achaea's whole dragon thing never did it for me.

Kestrel

I want my mindism to become self-aware once I hit 100.

DPierre

What I would like is an option to become a sort of.. "paragon" class which would be a specialization of the class you are. 3 of them to start would be neat, and then more can be added in the future.

For example, scoundrel could become privateer, boss, smuggler, or something like that.

Squeakums

Kestrel said:

I want my mindism to become self-aware once I hit 100.

I'm sorry Kestrel, I'm afraid I can't do that. 

Indi

saturnine said:

Yea, I like Aetolia/Lusternia handled it but Achaea's whole dragon thing never did it for me.

I'm the opposite. Aetolia's endgame race is basically a bunch of extra stats. It is such a significant bonus that it creates a divide between endgame and normal game (with pvp at least). On top of which, those extra 20 levels past 80 are already adding large amounts of max health/mana anyway - and then the endgame statpacks increase it even more.

It's a weird reward as well. Oh cool, I have level 100. Now less people are willing to fight me, but I'm better equipped to fight the other level 100 people. The game was no less fun when people bashed to level 80 and were happy they didn't need to eat or sleep.

I much prefer an engame, optional class. It's a fun and useful reward, that doesn't permanently replace your actual class. It is effective at some things, but limited compared to the normal classes. If there is no rush to get to level 100 (i.e. no perception that to compete, it is necessary) then it will take longer and that is okay. As a reward it gives me thing new to do and try and get good at - something to sink my time into. A neat idea given that by now (i.e. max level) I am a well established player and at risk of becoming bored.

Squeakums

What if the endgame reward was mostly cosmetic? Other than the extra stats that leveling naturally gives, maybe @Changu 's transhumanoid cloudform grants no extra advantage to bashing, but just a new aesthetic to show your friends you're better than them. Maybe some quality of life rewards but nothing that would further skew combat balance?

On a similar note, is character level the main numerical difference in terms of combat power? Is it gear? Artifacts? Obviously not taking skill into account, just the numbers.

Slander

Should have been more clear about what I like/dislike about previous incarnations of endgame. I mentioned liking the way Aetolia and Lusternia had a lot of choices - especially the way Lusternia's demigods have a lot of purely cosmetic purchasable stuff. I dislike Achaea's rigid 'dragon with fixed description.' I'm all for it being purely RP/cosmetic in Starmourn if it ever happens. I really dgaf if there's a strong PvP advantage to endgame because PvP is the least of my concerns.

Squeakums

Obviously the more choices there are, the more work there will be for the staff. But choices are neat, especially if they aren't entire transformations but something that builds or enhances what is already there.

I like cyborgs, but I also recognize that if anybody doesn't and that was hypothetically the only max level option, suddenly getting to max level isn't appealing to that demographic. That's the case for me with Dragons in Achaea, for example. Really don't care for the dragon aesthetic.

(I do care about PvP advantages, but other than that I agree fully) 

Xiru

Squeakums said:

That's the case for me with Dragons in Achaea, for example. Really don't care for the dragon aesthetic.

It took me a long time to warm up to the dragon aesthetic.

Rothare

Here's a cool thought. What if "Ascension" as an android or something was actually a way to retire/get rid of your character or something. In a story side of it, all the androids leave to some faraway galaxy that they all reside at and live as androids. And theres like some leaderboards thing or something showing the list of androids.

Groot

well, I think we need to ask WHY we have "ascension" to begin with. Dragon, Aspect, Demi-god, whatever...it just felt like it was a "Here's a shiny thing you can play with after grinding out 3,000 hours of xp".

While it's good to have an end-goal in mind, the problem is that there hasn't been any real good plan AFTER the ascension was gained. Imperian tried with being able to buy monoliths (and access to ascension powers) and a couple of artifact upgrades with gold & xp costs but it ultimately falls flat. There's nothing for Dragon after getting it (technically there's getting Elder dragon via talismans, but that can possibly be accomplished before actually getting dragon, especially if you're buying them from heavy hunters).

With Starmourn's focus on roleplay, we might be able to do something like have a list of perks that people can pick after earning some achievement and then burning the appropriate xp/mark cost. This could be something as simple as cosmetic changes to your character, making some ability stronger, or even a new class like Dragon. You have multiple options, so the avid hunter can work towards something amazing while the less ambitious can earn some little perk after casually hunting for 100 ig years

Borran

Rothare said:

Here's a cool thought. What if "Ascension" as an android or something was actually a way to retire/get rid of your character or something. In a story side of it, all the androids leave to some faraway galaxy that they all reside at and live as androids. And theres like some leaderboards thing or something showing the list of androids.

Maybe instead of retirement/ascension, it's just Assimilation. The Ishvana already try to assimilate everyone,  why not tie it into the retirement mechanic? And you can adjust it as conflicts change or give options. A new great threat might believe assimilation to a thought cloud is the highest form of Ascension. Or the cyborgs from Star Trek. Having mobs that resemble retired characters would be very cool. 

I'm tired and posting from my phone so I apologize if this is unintelligible or incoherent. 

WyldeKarde

Ascension ship options instead of class options with unique loadouts might be fun -- not more powerful, but unique or varied hardpoints or abilities?

Xiru

WyldeKarde said:

Ascension ship options instead of class options with unique loadouts might be fun -- not more powerful, but unique or varied hardpoints or abilities?

That sounds fun.

Malash

Syaja said:

WyldeKarde said:

Ascension ship options instead of class options with unique loadouts might be fun -- not more powerful, but unique or varied hardpoints or abilities?

That sounds fun.

I like this. Psychedelic laser beams and black hole guns.

bairloch

Malash said:

Syaja said:

WyldeKarde said:

Ascension ship options instead of class options with unique loadouts might be fun -- not more powerful, but unique or varied hardpoints or abilities?

That sounds fun.

I like this. Psychedelic laser beams and black hole guns.

Strap void kith users to the outside of your ship?

https://wiki.starmourn.com/Abyss_Bomb

Traveler

Indi said:

I much prefer an engame, optional class. It's a fun and useful reward, that doesn't permanently replace your actual class. It is effective at some things, but limited compared to the normal classes. If there is no rush to get to level 100 (i.e. no perception that to compete, it is necessary) then it will take longer and that is okay. As a reward it gives me thing new to do and try and get good at - something to sink my time into. A neat idea given that by now (i.e. max level) I am a well established player and at risk of becoming bored.

I think this is a really good point. This would be a good reason to even have an Ascension thing, something new to sink time into. Although, it would arguably need to be a class with some decent utility too, to appeal to non PvPers as well. It would be as if Achaea had Elemental factions instead of dragon for its Ascension class.

The retirement ideas aren't great because I know very few people who want to retire as soon as they hit level 100.

Squeakums

Traveler said:

It would be as if Achaea had Elemental factions instead of dragon for its Ascension class.

I like the points you've made in general, and I wanted to weigh in with my opinion on this particular bit. Not addressing you in particular, just sharing my thoughts on this topic. When I think of elements this way, I always think of them in relation to conflicts among themselves. Earth vs. Air, fire vs. water. That kind of thing.

Obviously this is just an example, but with a small playerbase on MUDs in general, I think it is best to not try to pit the endgame players exclusively against each other. I think Imperian did something like this with Aspects but I'm not sure. Instead, have their new perks, whatever they may be--new shops (edit: ships!) sounds awesome!--something that is meant to keep interacting with the whole playerbase regardless of level. Fragmenting the game into endgame and not-endgame might work for some genres, but I think it would be mostly harmful to this one.

Maybe that's not at all with what you meant by elemental-based ascension, but endgame water vs. fire is what immediately came to mind for me.

Traveler

In Achaea, the Elemental factions are nominally against each other, but the players who choose the factions don't necessarily fight each other (I.e., you will have Earth Lords and Fire Lords in the same city and it doesn't make any difference) except when completing the quests maybe. But all this is beside the point, I should explain what I really meant. I don't mean that we should do Elements in Starmourn.

The Elemental classes, in Achaea, are both a new race/desc and a new class, that you can obtain by questing for the appropriate faction. The reason I mentioned them in contrast to Dragons, is because while the dragon achievement mainly gives a buff to bashing, Elemental classes are used as a new way to PvP. And they gave people a lot more to do when they came out, both with the questing, and the whole learning a new class and new way to combat. There isn't a whole lot of utility with most of them though, aside from Air, which has some nice travel abilities.

So what I was trying to say, was that a PvP class might be an interesting option, using this as an example. It wouldn't have to necessarily be that, but I definitely think that anything that adds a lot more material to explore - a new time sink - is a cool idea.

Oooooooh, what if reaching x level added a new area that you could explore/quest/bash?

Groot

Traveler said:

Oooooooh, what if reaching x level added a new area that you could explore/quest/bash?

I immensely dislike level-locking areas, especially as an avid explorer. Most areas are soft-locked just by difficulty but at least someone who can't hunt there could party up with other people or with a stronger friend and hunt there, or at least run around to do things like explore, buy, quests, etc. Restricting access based on level is going to be locking out parts of the game to a large amount of people, casuals who don't have the time or money to invest in level grinding just to gain access to a new feature

Squeakums

What about something like really strong boss mobs in certain areas? I guess I'm picturing something like combining a WoW dungeon/instance with a Monster Hunter style space creature. Sprinkle them throughout the game, add more high-end ones over time?

Not necessarily level locked, but they're strong enough that you won't want to go there until you're strong enough and have some other strong friends with you. 

I'm not sure how this ties into ascension and I don't want to derail this too much, but that seems like it could work and be fun. 

Indi

I just dislike the idea of separating the game into game vs endgame. There is so much more to muds than exp/levels. Some people love exp and achievements, which is fine. Others don’t.

Aetolia has people that detest bashing, save up for exp bonuses, wait until they have a few weeks with nothing to do, binge-bashing and trying to get to 100 in a rush so they can compete in pvp on an even playing ground.

Ultimately I don’t care what Starmourn gets, so long as it isn’t inherently flawed like the Aetolian example. 

I’d honestly be happy with nothing at all, if that is the only alternative, though I do think there have been some neat ideas in this thread.

Kix

I know we're talking in relation to the other games when we talk about level 100, but I think it would be a good idea to note that the game is 1 - 75 on launch.

Level

Surprise, we have levels! I know, I know - you're shocked. The innovation of it all!

More seriously, the level range at launch will be 1-75. XP will be earned to level you up, with your highest-ever xp figure recorded such that if you lose xp due to death (we will have an xp death penalty), you can regain xp up to that point significantly more quickly than you got there the first time.