Slavery

bairloch

Saw this in the new Song lore.
"Slavery was legalized, and became the standard punishment for those engaged in open dissent against the office of the Lord Commander"
I've intended to be Song, but slavery is legal there, I might have to switch. Is it still legal in Song?
Do the Celestine's allow slavery? What about Scatterhome?

Xiru

Can I play a slave / former slave? Then I really don't know which civilization I want.

Malash

Join Scatterhome, where you're slave only to the rule of the mob!

And more seriously, everyone in the Dominion is more or less under the thumb of the Lord Commander, it's just a question of degree, no? I mean, if the Lord Commander orders you to do something, it won't matter if you're officially a slave or not, the results are the same.

Sairys

Well I mean it's citizens that get a vote, slaves presumably wouldn't so the LC is only really beholden, to a degree, to the will of the citizens. (i.e enough to maintain power)
It's not mentioned as indentured so potentially these people are slaves for the rest of their lives.

Idk, I've started looking at the other two orgs since that release after being pretty set on the Song Dominion based on the original info release.

WyldeKarde

Do any of the other IRE games deal with this issue? I'd be interested to see what has been implemented before -- I don't really see a way to make a player a slave?

Sairys

Hallifax in Lusternia has a caste system with the lowest being servants/indentured slaves. In the original implementation everyone started there and worked their way up but it's mostly ignored by the players now afaik.

It seems like there's a thematic difference there in that, in theory, all the different parts of the collective are working in harmony to achieve the goals of the org. So servants and the like might not be able to really serve the collective in another capacity at the moment or maybe a slave is repaying a debt, but it's possible to rise up to higher castes. Ultimately, servant/serf/slave is just a low ranked member of the org that hasn't earned a promotion yet.

There really isn't a way to make a pc a slave unless the player is willing to play along and it's not really likely that people that would be opposing the LC would be willing to do so. And even if there's a "slave" status you could hit someone with, they'd likely just leave cause I doubt it'd be that difficult.

Devina

Magnagora has 'contemptible races' in Lusternia, but that basically just means you're treated like shit and never get promoted in guilds or city despite what you might do to improve it. Not real slavery.

It would have to be done through RP, if someone was going to be a slave.

Xiru

Technically characters in Mhaldor (Achaea) start out with the rank slave but it's not true slavery. Former slave is entirely possible though and can be RP-ed well. 

Lhundrup

I plan on making my character a former slave. One that managed to save what meager marks he could in order to buy his own freedom.

Xiru

Randomly, The Song Dominion has a beautiful name to me, and yet sees to be the most brutal in nature of the player civs. I like it.

Garrick

If given the opportunity I will be buying and selling you guys left and right.

Malash

Garrick said:

If given the opportunity I will be buying and selling you guys left and right.

I'm a merc. You can only rent me.

Indi

I read a series recently, first book called "Poor Man's Fight" by Elliot Kay. A fun read - not literary genius or anything, but still a fun read and an interesting setting with corporations owning and running most planets, including the people within.

Slavery isn't legal in Elliot Kay's world, but corporations hold most people in debt that they have little hope of ever repaying - people work for the corporations, who pay them enough to live and repay the debt that the same corporations own. The debt is earned by paying for education (run by the corporations) and other things, such as medical expenses.

Which really means people are born into indentured servitude. Even the expensive 'longevity treatment' is extending people's lives so they can pay for the debt of getting the treatment.

The storyline of course deals with a revolution against that system, but includes a close look at space piracy, and the author has done a lot of research on what real piracy was like - including the dynamics between crew, captain, governments and other pirates.

Definitely worth a read - pretty cheap as an ebook - and it may give some ideas on how to include slavery in the game without it being the slavery we all think of when hearing the word.

Xiru

Book sounds interesting but that sounds very similar to the Ascendancy pre-revolution. I think though that the issue may be that people are thinking of slavery as real world slavery and not political dissidents and prisoners in a futuristic, fictional setting. This is less plantations, more prison? 

Sairys

Yeah, the megacorps that render the poor/their employees slaves is a pretty common trope. There's a similar thing in Ready Player One with IOI or the sheer wealth of the Meths in Altered Carbon. Hallifax in Lusternia was effectively a business before it's release.


Given that the term used is slavery not prison (though, that is really a form of slavery) to me it implies that these people are rendered property, given the atmosphere it's plausible it could be generational as well.

While I imagine there probably isn't a mechanical way to render someone a slave. It's plausible that some may want to live up to organisational rp and treat those who contested the LC as such for being "dissidents".

Indi

It'd be possible to have everyone beginning in Song be in debt, and the process of advancing through newbiehood involves buying their way out of that debt.

Punishments for crimes could then be putting the characters back into debt.

None of that involves one player char 'owning' another player char and being forced to do things they don't find fun. It wouldn't involve the non-slaves treating the slaves like dirt. All it would be is another way of explaining the initiated having respect, power, voting rights etc, and non-initiated being more or less ignored. Much the same as every org, ever, in IRE games - just with a different explanation.

Sairys

Sure, though I guess that feels more like something I'd expect to see in the Ascendancy? Like it feels like what they would have been doing to people before the revolution.

My expectation for the Dominion at the moment would be that everyone starts just after graduating from their military training, effectively placing them at the beginning of their career with ranks in the org being a representation of their advancement in that career.

Given the framing of the punishment i'd expect slavery takes you outside that system, i.e you lose things such as your ability to vote.

Indi

Right, that's true. I was responding to the discussion on slavery in song based on the OP and how there could be player slavery in the game. I guess in reading the thread I got distracted from the actual Dominion lore.

Sairys

Akh.

Anyways, I keep coming back to the point that if it's not fun then there's no reason to stick it out.

Though, now I have an entertaining idea on how the Ascendancy could have implemented "influence" heh

Malash

There's always the option for the Song to make fixed-term slavery the price for former org enemies to join them.

Devina

As for treating opponents of the LC that way for their dissent, just remember: Song backs its LCs only as far as their charisma will take them. If they're inept at leading the Dominion, Song'll be just as willing to replace them with someone new. So dissent in that manner relies on the opponent being less-liked by the Dominion than the current LC.

Sairys

Devina said:

As for treating opponents of the LC that way for their dissent, just remember: Song backs its LCs only as far as their charisma will take them. If they're inept at leading the Dominion, Song'll be just as willing to replace them with someone new. So dissent in that manner relies on the opponent being less-liked by the Dominion than the current LC.

Well that's the issue with the set up isn't it?

The most overt form of dissent is contesting the LC, losing that would also provide the LC with a gauge on how likely it is they could get away with "enslaving" the loser because they'll see the votes against them. (Which helps to further cement the power of the LCs group)

This in turn also discourages people from contesting, because if you're not certain you'll win, you're signing up for potential "slave" status.

There's been some shenanigans elsewhere that remind me of this, but that wasn't a core / business as usual situation for that org where it seems like it may be for the Dominion.