Well, anyway. Let's turn this into something constructive. Sorry, this is going to be a long one.
I, like Poet, don't really care much for participating in the economy, because, fundamentally, I just don't like spaceflight. That is, I hate going from A to B, sitting there and watching the space map go by for stretches of time, all the time. I really don't get anyone who says they enjoy something akin to watching paint dry. Seriously, help me understand, because I want to sip the kool-aid. There are cool aspects to Starmourn space, but that doesn't do it for me.
Despite my gripe, I invested a lot of my own marks, time, and effort into learning/min-maxing the economy system, setting up my manufacturing network, and then going through the mining-production routines, all with the hopes of producing and selling ship supplies on the market. Really, I did this because I'm interested in PK, and it was suggested that ship supply availability (i.e., a working economy) would facilitate that. Of course the economy will only survive if we have people willing to participate, do the legwork, and introduce supply and competition into the market. Telling people "tough luck, don't participate if you don't like it" is the wrong approach, hey. In fact, increased participation will solve a lot of the perceived problems, so I'd like to use this medium to offer critiques and suggestions to that end.
@Ilyos not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's my feedback on the economy system.
1. The economy is exclusive for the space crowd, and not everyone enjoys space, especially long-distance flights.
So the general premise in adding things like Wilderness and Pirate Refineries was pretty cool; alternatives to traditional mining are great. But even with Wilderness, spaceflight is a hard requirement to economy participation. In all iterations of resource generation, at a minimum you have to pick up the resource, deliver it, and then ferry intermediary and finished products around stations to manufacture and sell. I'll say it again; I hate the mindless asteroid/gas searching and the ferrying. It is the most time-consuming part of the process, and it is the least fun, and you just can't escape it. But overall, we should aim for equal opportunity to participate in the economy among both ground and space oriented players.
Add some way to mine or gain resources strictly via the ground. The easiest implementation would be to tweak the Wilderness mechanic to cater to this.
Add a station service like STATION TRANSPORT 50 DIAMENE TO DANICA, wherein resources/products can be auto-ferried to other stations for a fee. I'd gladly reduce my profit margin for time/effort saved. [Plus how cool would it be if NPC/player transports could be raided midflight? Maybe you could hack a station to find a shipment schedule, and then fly around blapping any escort ships and commandeering the transport. You know, real space pirate shiz... but maybe that's for a rainy day...]
Reduce flying time from A to B. I would not be participating in the economy if I did not have a voidgate permit. Voidgates cut so much of the tedium in travel, but the cost can add up. I think it would be really great for the masses if you could buy temporary voidgate passes - e.g., for a flat fee of 2500 marks your corvette has free voidgate use for the next IG month. You can base the cost on the ship type, so it's equivalent to, idk, maybe 5 voidgate fees? Another idea would be to introduce additional means of increasing your maximum ship speed, or having some kind of channeled ship warp mechanic where you can leap multiple zones at once.
Reduce the time searching for needed commodities by making the hyperscanner artifact more affordable, and/or maybe introducing something like a tavern or hub on stations where you can buy tips from NPC spacefarers for resource locations nearby. (e.g., OFFER 100 FOR IRIIL TIP -> "Yeah buddy, I passed an iriil cloud out in RA-4443.")
Make flying more fun...?? Add more random things in space that you can discover while flying, much like pirate refineries - maybe something like shipmod crafting parts (eventually) or stranded spacefarers needing rescue or sumsum, something that you can happen upon along the way. It could also be cool to introduce activities that you can do while in your ship - some kind of minigame or in-flight entertainment.
2. There is not a whole lot of apparent incentive to participate in the economy, especially for those who want to do so casually.
Somewhat reiterating points already made by others, but in the current system, the profits are mostly realized at the back end of the manufacturing process - i.e., selling finished products. And to get to the end, it requires a fair amount of upfront investment in refining and production costs. So for someone who wants to pick up an asteroid here or there, it can be difficult to see the return on investment for your time, unless there are player-enforced systems to organize production. The folks in CA are proud to tout some sort of centralized economy, and they should. But achieving that also requires an investment of time and effort to maintain, and this will only manifest and work if you can really incentivize people to create and participate in these systems. Money is not compelling alone when you can gain marks through other means that are much less involved. So, in addition to improving the actual manufacturing process to better enable participation as I suggested in the previous section, also:
Increase the value of raw commodities by introducing meaningful outlets. The Admin are probably already working towards this, but I'll say it anyway. Mechanics like guard costs, faction missions, and mod shipments are along the right track, but in their current iteration, these are all mostly ignored. So in addition to improving those related systems, maybe you can add to the Blackmarket, so players can trade resources for unique things - gear, collectibles, chips, mods, etc. Whatever the implementation may be, an increased demand/use for raw commodities should put pressure on the player market to offer fair marks value for resources, beyond prices baselined to refinery costs, and this will help to compensate miners too.
3. There should be parity in personal market orders. You can probably make a few marks from mining PMOs, but at least to me it's not remotely worthwhile. Your profits from selling finished goods like ship supplies are higher and require less tedium. On the other hand, any no-brain autofactory specialist can go and buy products available on the market (especially sensors and arrays) and turn those around through PMOs for serious $$$, Every. Single. Day. Other than potentially having factories that establish the manufacturing infrastructure, those individuals actively contribute nothing to the market and are incentivized to remove economic supply for personal profit with minimal effort. Nothing against those people, just saying that right now it's too good and is not a positive for the economy.
PMOs should not be refreshed every day. Change the frequency to every week or something.
Significantly increase the quantities in mining PMOs (I'm talking triple digits), so you're more likely to fill a good deal especially if you have an excess of that resource.
Maybe have PMOs only reflect your recently produced goods. E.g., if your array factory is used, you get a chance to have a PMO for arrays. In this, if you contribute/produce nothing, you get nothing.
@Azlyn "If you do not enjoy, you should not participate." might appear having a negative sound from the outlet but actually that is the core reason why someone plays a game. If someone does not enjoy something, they would really torture themselves doing that thing. Meanwhile there will be always others who enjoy these game types. Can you make PvE immensely enjoyable to someone who does not like doing the same rotation over and over? Can you make PvP immensely enjoyable to someone who finds it tedious and overwhelming? Can you make RP enjoyable immensely when they are bored at even throwing one or two lines of emotes? At best you can make the things tolerable for them. In rare cases they will change their minds as people's tastes change over time or they find out they can manage those activities very well.
The Kool-Aid:
1. Starmourn is a space game. 2. In a space game there has to be lots of empty spaces, so going from point A to B is pretty much what you should do in space with a space-ship. 3. This existence of empty space gives the feeling of vastness. 4. In different space games there are players who are merely interested in finding the profitable minerals and mining them, continually. In a sense it is no different then continuously bashing mobs hour after hour. So calling miners that they are "watching paint dry" is no different then a PvPer calling a pure RPer useless or a RPer calling a PvPer a PvP ape. It is not your taste, it might be someone else's.
Now onto those stated points:
1. The economy is exclusive for the space crowd, and not everyone enjoys space, especially long-distance flights.
Saying economy is exclusive to the space crowd is an exaggerated statement because economy does not consist of space materials alone. Furthermore that statement deliberately ignores the involvement of policy makers, demand creators and PvPers and hackers. Cosmpiercers are also can be started by space crowd but can only be completed by ground crowd efficiently. They are part of the economy.
* Adding strict resources to the ground would take away from people who are already going out on their ships for resources. You have already Wilderness mechanic to acquire resources by ground activity. And you can convert Cosmpiercer credits to resources which is an activity only can be completed by ground people, especially Hackers. Also if you want the best yield from a refinery raid you will want to hack the refinery giving more importance to Hacking.
* You mentioned voidgate permit. It was the worst idea ever as a promo artifact that impacted one of the most important mark sinks negatively but since it is $$ for advantage and part of IRE business so there is really nothing else to say. But possibly an idea would be providing Wormhole Generators that can use raw materials as fuel that will allow you faster travel to zones. Also that can be a choice between Wormhole Generator or Skipdrive. Or Wild Wormholes that will lead to random places in the galaxy but they might expire over time.
* Actually whenever people explore around, they tip people about places with abundant gases or asteroids. Why reduce interactivity by adding more NPC-aid? Though random encounters on space would be decent, there is no doubt.
2. There is not a whole lot of apparent incentive to participate in the economy, especially for those who want to do so casually.
The keyword in this sentence is "casually". When you do something "casually" that means you are not really giving it much thought at all and you do when it is on your path. Like PvPing casually means that you simply tag along and do interrupts or damage for your main PvPers to capitalize upon or PvEing casually that you go around and kill mobs whenever it strikes your fancy, you really do not care about time-to-kill times or efficiency of rotations. So for mining it would mean, while going to somewhere with your ship you see a big nice iriil cloud and deploy scoops at hand and move on. If you are strictly looking for profitable materials to sell or for your production needs while trying to increase your efficiency that means you are not doing it "casually".
Now that is out of the way, let us build upon that. You are practically saying that achieving a working economy requires investment. It is really not too different then to become a great PvPer you should invest a lot of time into coding and understanding mechanics. And it is not too different then to become a successful politician you will have to connect with people and gain their support. They all require investment. And if you truly made an investment in RL financially you will know it is not really fun process. Because "investment" itself means to commit marks, time, effort, resources in order to earn profits in return. That return might never happen if you misread the current economical climate, your time might be lost due to wrong decisions and much efforts can go to waste. If everyone successfully and abundantly pushes goods and materials into the gameworld, with minimal investment then that impacts economy negatively. This tedious activity and time essentially prevents people from flooding the markets and causing a profitability issue.
Also ignoring guards and station missions are really up to your choice. For example, the free repair advantage truly saved me tons of repairkit usage after returning from an unlucky incursion. Guards give Ascendancy a reason to keep the RP of law and order while they might not have a point for other factions. And if someone kills them, they create jobs for our PvPers and of course keep them out of our turf. And on top of that they keep the demand for the miners. But I do agree on the fact that we need more reasons to crack the whip on the miners and industrialists which in turn will give us more reason to reward them.
Economy is itself about gaining money. So saying marks alone is not incentive enough...hmm...tell me why people PvE when currently they are not gaining XP? To...gain marks. When players make mining profitable, the reason to mine would be gaining marks right? Then use those marks to get ships, goods, credits etc. You can say there are not enough mark sinks and that is all about it. If there are not enough mark sinks then marks will be inflated.
3. There should be parity in personal market orders.
Sounds like the problem is with the greed in industrialists rather then the system itself. If industrialists cannot find materials to buy from the market how are they going to get those returns? Unless there are NPCs selling cheap resources, that I do not know about or if they are not doing mining themselves which is fair game. So claiming they can simply buy out from the market and do ridiculous profits is a bit circumstantial.
Regardless people should be selling their goods to other people not to NPCs which will increase the inflation in marks. When the marks start to circulate that is the time when you have a proper economy. Too much marks introduced by the NPCs only negatively impacts the system. Currently we are trying to circulate marks in Celestine Ascendancy back and forth. Yes it is an investment. And in every economy investments are made. Your solution to increase PMOs across the board would even make things worse regarding the circulation of goods and marks.
To write off casual players like myself is a disturbing direction to take. Any game, Starmourn included, should be as inclusive as possible when it comes to playstyles.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
No one is writing off casual players. I have no idea where you get that idea. You can login and do whatever activity your fancy strikes. Starmourn facilitates that perfectly.
But being a casual player and being knee-deep in economy mechanics are two entirely different things.
I remember how the discussions and suggestions done for Cosmpiercers with the claim that would lower the participation barrier and difficulty turned out in the end. A long gap of inactivity on that part! Again, I make my warnings against making things way too easy and taking something balanced and imbalancing it.
But if we think this is Skyrim, not Starmourn. Be my guest.
Hopefully my commenting on this thread is not once again mistaken for an invitation to contact me OOC in game. Now that that's out of the way.
Something I don't recall ever being brought up is the fact that the economy is exclusive in more ways than @Azlyn mentioned. It's not only the production side, it's every single thing about the economy. All manufactured items are necessary only for those who are otherwise engaged in space activities - scoops, tethers, probes for gathering, batteries, astromechs, etc. for those who take part in space combat. I don't really know what could be changed to player-made but as it currently stands I have zero reason to engage in any part of the economy except by choice. Even when I do choose to fly somewhere to hunt or whatever rather than gatehop, it's so easy to avoid incursions and compiercers that I haven't bought any supplies in RL months. So I think that, if there were a way to incentivize (without being detrimental to) non-spacers to take part in the consumption side (as well as production) it would be a boon.
Correlation does not imply causation. There are so many actual factors surrounding why there has been a lull regarding Cosmpiercers, including: burnout from doing something repeatedly with low rewards/little action, RL issues preventing major players being able to participate, financial barriers preventing people from participating (which I think proves that the participation barrier is still too high, maybe?), and even fallout from derailed discussions like this one.
But this thread isn't about cosmpiercers, and it shouldn't be about defending very basic systems that cater to a very particular playstyle, either. This game is still in beta, and the economic system is very much still in its infancy. There is so much room for improvement, and I've seen a lot of good ideas in this thread that would contribute to its development. If there are actual reasons that someone thinks each individual idea is bad, they should absolutely expound upon those views with solid evidence, but explaining to people that they're playing the game wrong and that that's why they're not enjoying themselves is extremely frustrating and continually derails the thread from actual discussion of sorely needed advancements to the system.
1. Mining possess initial barriers. 2. Mining is not profitable compared to other two specializations. 3. Economy does not work.
I have explained clearly, by taking my time all of those claims were not valid. I have told successful examples, pointed towards overabundance of resources the factions possess. And then I have also pointed out several alternative ways to acquire those elusive and tedious resources.
We all agree that advancements can and will be done. For example, such as random encounters on spaceflight is a good idea. But injecting more NPC orders and detaching the player interactivity further is not.
So tell me, what further solid evidence you need other then showing in the game that we could build a profitable production-consumption cycle? I think disregarding the current successful examples and trying to change the system until you will think you are quite successful is counter-productive to the game on the whole.
1. Mining possesses initial barriers. That is an absolutely valid claim. You have forsaken that barrier by way of contributing to an isolated economic cycle, but the barrier is still there. If I came to play the game for the economy, I'd bounce in 3 days, having spent 300% of the marks I had earned (since I'm spending marks I'm being given for nothing) without having made a single mark of profit. I'd be burned out, frustrated, and bored. Or: I'd feel the exact same way I have every time I've tried to get into Starmourn's economy so far. Yeah, there are workarounds, but the problem still exists that a newbie can't come and play the game for one of its main draws without significant social interaction (compared to the other two).
Disclaimer: Duh, roleplaying is important and duh roleplaying involves social interaction, but there is more to RP than just fluffy unicorn happy trade deals. Imagine wanting to play a space trucker with a shitty attitude and finding out it's fundamentally impossible without also being a genocidal maniac... now you're just a trope.
ETA: Or "it isn't fun", which is the main problem (outside of the very specific situation "capitalist debt" you have crafted)
1. Mining possesses initial barriers. That is an absolutely valid claim. You have forsaken that barrier by way of contributing to an isolated economic cycle, but the barrier is still there. If I came to play the game for the economy, I'd bounce in 3 days, having spent 300% of the marks I had earned (since I'm spending marks I'm being given for nothing) without having made a single mark of profit. I'd be burned out, frustrated, and bored. Or: I'd feel the exact same way I have every time I've tried to get into Starmourn's economy so far. Yeah, there are workarounds, but the problem still exists that a newbie can't come and play the game for one of its main draws without significant social interaction (compared to the other two).
Disclaimer: Duh, roleplaying is important and duh roleplaying involves social interaction, but there is more to RP than just fluffy unicorn happy trade deals. Imagine wanting to play a space trucker with a shitty attitude and finding out it's fundamentally impossible without also being a genocidal maniac... now you're just a trope.
We give thousands of marks simply completing basic courses and there is even sign-up bonus for corporations. We even give complementary mining starter set. So tell me, where is the initial barrier? It is not like you are asked to provide a 25k refinery or autofactory. Just take a 50 mark scoop and get out, we have the market for you to make profit. There is demand and if the demand lags we will create the demand sooner or later.
So if you want to play an anti-social space trucker who will not do business with the literally rich corporations and job-creators, then sure...do not expect to roll in marks. Complete your NPC orders, do your RP and enjoy your time. Let the gears of economy work. You know to call an economy a player economy you gotta involve players in the equation!
I'm just dropping into the thread to say: back when I was active, I knew several players who were able to afford their own refineries and even corvettes almost exclusively from money they earned while mining. One of them even fit the "space trucker with a shitty attitude" archetype pretty well, as mentioned by Nykara.
What CA has isn't a centralized economy because that term implies free market is limited and individuals are forced to participate. What it has is a voluntary system that incentivizes mining to make it profitable for players, with gains that make the barriers of entry worth it - and it's not a "fluffy unicorn happy trade deal" either. It doesn't exist to give players free money from the org's coffers. It started as ways to boost up faction commodity stocks but it actually generates revenue and has for some time now - both for the players and the faction. Everyone wins. It's a system where both parties cooperate together for mutual gain, and I'm not tooting my own horn because it's people who came after Ren that really made it flourish.
Where am I going with all of this? My point is:
You can't have profitable mining without working economy, but you also can't have a working (faction-level, but let's face it: almost all economy is faction level) economy without involvement of people in power. Just like in real life people won't work (at least voluntarily) unless someone with money is willing to pay them, in the game players won't mine unless someone - faction leaders, will properly incentivize them to do so. That's what happened in CA: Grek, Ata, etc worked hard to set up a system that required an initial investment but, in return, offered long-term benefits for everyone involved. If you are a faction leader and complain that the economy doesn't work or that it's hard to get people into mining because it doesn't generate cash or has high barriers of entry? It's in your power to change that.
An economy can't be driven by NPC orders. It's up to the players to make it work.
An economy can't be driven by NPC orders. It's up to the players to make it work.
I agree with this sentiment, but I disagree that the onus is on people in power. Even if you have a system in place, there needs to be real reasons for players to rally in this and sustain it. The people in power are still players, volunteering their time in what shouldn't feel like a job, and so are the miners who suffer the real time sink. We all should not be compelled to do something that isn't fun and isn't worthwhile in a game setting. I actually originally stuck my toes in the mining waters because I wanted to get weapon mod shipments. Then I didn't need them anymore, or the burden of the chore far outweighed the prospect of a reward, so I stopped. Now, after getting suckered in again, I'm here sitting on an excess of ship supplies, which are being bought and used much slower than I can make them, and there's pretty much no competition on the market. (Where's all this CA product at??) So, anyway, I've mostly stopped mining again.
But yeah, I almost suggested getting rid of PMOs entirely, because I don't really get their purpose in the grand scheme. But maybe they're okay to have until the economy is actually chugging along.
The people in power
are still players, volunteering their time in what shouldn't feel like a
job
Unfortunately, in games like IRE MUDs positions of IC power always come with OOC responsibilities that "feel like a job". It's a part of how these games are structured: even in MMOs where the players' ability to influence the game world is significantly lessened, being a guild/team/FC leader comes with potential work attached: running events, recruitment, organizing raids, etc. In IRE, where a large part of the game is run by players, that work is less "potential" and more "obligatory", at least unless you want your org to fall behind and into ruin. That's not everyone's cup of tea and this is why not everyone should run for leader.
and so are the miners who suffer the real time sink.
Just like there are players who don't mind grinding the same mobs for 12 hours straight, there are players who don't mind mining asteroids for 12 hours. The problem is that the earlier is inherently profitable, while the latter is a part of the crafting/gathering economy and must be made profitable by the players.
Once again, this is not IRE-specific. Other MMOs' economies also work only because of an unwritten social contract (or don't if the contract can't be maintained). If most players believe crafted goods shouldn't cost more than their materials, then the crafting economy won't work. If most players believe that gathering resources is "free" so a stack shouldn't cost them more than 10 copper/gil/Toddcoins (official currency of Bethesda games), then the gathering economy won't work. In Starmourn, the buyers need to be able to offer enough compensation that: 1. the sellers (miners) feel it's worth it and 2. the buyers are actually able to turn in a profit. Which brings me to my main point:
I agree with this sentiment, but I disagree that the onus is on people
in power.
The onus is on people in power because unlike individual players, organisations can offer additional incentives to miners that are not strictly monetary. This is why CA's system is more than just "fulfill order, get paid". Individual players can't do that, at least not in a fashion that is simultaneously structured and not a pain in the ass for everyone involved (accountability, bookkeeping, etc).
Now we've graduated from "you aren't playing the game right" to "Not only are you not playing the game right, but it's your fault that no one in your faction is having fun with this."
Nope. Not going to accept that shade. The onus is definitely not on faction leadership to make a game system work.
[Cassandra]: Poet will be unsurprised to learn that she has unread news.
Okay, I hear what you're saying, and in large part I agree with the sentiments. Players and the community interaction are obviously the backbone to the MUD and are necessary to have a successful world. I just think some of your analogies are untrue to this scenario. I really disagree with "there are players who don't mind mining asteroids for 12 hours" because the testimonies of so many players in addition to the low market activity overall say otherwise.
I also disagree with "organisations can offer additional incentives to miners that are not strictly monetary". Rank is only for bragging rights, so favors are pretty weak motivation. Maybe Song can erect a magnificent statue of me to glorify my economic prowess, but once that baby goes up I'm out.
But seriously, maybe factions can cobble something together that I just can't envision, but even still, I'd like to see meaningful commodity/product sinks inherent to Starmourn. Resources shouldn’t just be a means to marks and ship supplies. I would presume they should be treated as the conflict currency here, like Lusternia power or Aetolia ylem, and in those other systems the currency can be spent by orgs or players for perks or RP type investments.
And look, I've been the burnt-out city leader/guild leader/whatever before or have chased boneheaded achievements, where the MUD becomes too much like a job. Many times. I'm actually a sucker. But the motivation to do that comes from some passion (or ego?), and in this economy system, I just don't see it. When I first heard about SM, I was excited and envisioned fighting to control planets I could mine, or embargoing sectors of space and monopolizing the PLUTONIUM, or busting into people's factories guns ablazin to sabotage their production. Not... pushing m's across text space. Serious kudos to those who are all about it, but I'm skeptical those people actually exist and are producing. I'd be interested to maybe see some data on the output and longevity of the CA system, but I suppose time will tell!
I'm not talking about favors or a fluff statue. How CA's system works is all described in faction help files, and likewise the profits it generates are mentioned in faction news posts. Everyone can make an alt and check them out, and in fact I haven't been an org leader for a long time so that's all the contact I get with the system - and yes, that means there is always a possibility that all the results are fabricated to make Zhulkarn's leadership look good. Somehow I doubt it though.
Would be pretty cool RP if it were fabricated, imo
Kinda OOC though, considering the current CA government was raised on a platform of honesty and opposing manipulative, two-faced liars who were in power previously. Unless they're going for a cyclical, "power corrupts and you become what you hate" narrative.
Still, making up such numbers means the lack of accountability stops being an IC narrative and leaks into OOC breach of trust, and I know the trio of players who rule CA right now are smarter than to do something like this.
Last thing I remember is that we gave nanites voting rights...after that we were just figureheads. Nanocracy ftw.
I will not get into much detailed specifics or arguments anymore because I am slightly burned out by the discussion. But the whole resource and mark deposits can be tracked on the faction logs and you can see clearly which participant broke the bank each cycle because Ata's reports and attention to detail are excellent. BOB-level excellent. Furthermore this system is not my creation since I RP the military corporate Jin, who is generally tasked to incentivize mayhem and destruction.
Also initially mining was never my thing and I generally prefer to crunch numbers from afar; yet to get a better grasp of the system created by the fellow players, I went on a mining drive several times which was not any less fun then bashing or incursions. It was just an activity like any other as far as fun goes. But I understand tastes differ. In the end that made me appreciate the system further. If I am voyaging around and see a cloud, I will definitely bag it. We always try to adopt the mentality that if a system becomes too much of a burden on anyone, we should just scrap it for something better.
And it is truth that we are currently the least populated faction in raw numbers, but the things our people come up with to increase efficiency to make up for that really amazes me and as a player makes me proud to play in CA. Like all systems one day our current system might come to a halt for whatever reason, but then it will be the time for Guardian Executive and Guardian Council to find a solution.
I can't provide any data, but I'll chime in with my own
impressions, because I never really expected to get too into space gathering
and manufacturing. However, with the changes to how comms spawn according to
economy, I really enjoy mining these days. It's nice to be able to look at my
current cargo (please please please add location and type filters) and say,
"I need some iriil today," and know where I can go to find it.
Despite my own enjoyment, though, I don't have the time to
do a lot of mining. Especially when I also want to haul intermediary products
out to factories in the more remote subsecs or do some incursions. So, I have
several high-paying market buy orders (as in, x3 or more for high-use gas).
I think that's probably okay? I imagine this is kind of what
the system is trying to drive towards, and might even be why the autofactory
PMOs are so broken? (I don't know about that, they seem egregious, but it's a
thought. Like, shove marks into people at the end so they have enough that
they're okay with buying base comms at higher prices?) Though with faction
programs probably a decent portion of comms are staying within the faction, so
the general market doesn't see them.
And it definitely wouldn't be okay if we
had zero dedicated miners, but my orders do get picked up fairly regularly (I
don't think there's been a day when some resources haven't been delivered), so
there is at least one person making money out there.
To be fair, I...don't really care that much about making big
money. Probably if I wanted to maximize profit, I wouldn't have
such high buy orders. Though to that, even my highest buy order prices still
allow a decent profit margin if I did try to sell, but actually moving produced
goods on the market via offers or orders isn't really a priority for me. I just
like being able to make stuff and use the stuff I make.
Maybe if factions could create orders, and arrange to pay
out more if the order was fulfilled by a faction member? That would be neat.
I understand CA seems to be essentially doing this, but,
well, there's a limited number of people who find joy in that kind of
bookkeeping, and honestly it's likely they gravitated naturally toward CA.
Faction-created orders would allow the same thing, but without the need for a
personal accountant. Or at least, it would greatly reduce the manual work an
accountant would have to do.
Come September I will be shutting off my market orders until January, just to see how the market balances out. I'm not saying I am the jesus of the space economy, but let's just say that before I started my scheme, elessium's market price was two marks (it is now at eighteen).
Also, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I can absolutely ignore the whole space economy and nothing about my game changes. That's how broken it is: it's inconsequential. There is nothing about it that I want
And beforr you pull out the next station mission mechanic, I will stop you right there and say that made things needed negatively, not wanted positively.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
In due time undoubtedly they will add further uses to both marks and produced goods. To promote certain resources developers would need to make tweaks here and there on formulas. For example changing the shield/hull bias of gravitics could be a viable option since all gravitics use elessium. Then adding elessium to several other places where lorewise that makes sense can be option as well. If you want to see how the resources are performing, then check the orders about resources that are used more frequently, such as iriil or vandium. The more used resources have more weight in how the economy is performing. Like stock market indexes, the larger firms with greater volumes will have more impact.
And in a game pretty much a character can ignore many things depending on the playstyle. That is not an indicator of something being inconsequential or broken. If you are playing a performer who regularly performs and built up a RP revolving around that, you really do not care about which ship is hauling nanoplastic, what are the fluctuations on vandium prices or where is a pirate autofactory producing unlicensed processors etc. Of course positive use cases would be addition of tradeskills such as furnitures or sculpting that will use the commodities produced in the economy. You are not interested in putting a nanoplastic or paristeel statue of yourself or such arts are not your cup of tea? You do not care about designing or buying physical furniture that other players can probe and interact in myriad of ways? Then it will be again inconsequential. Similarly, if you are not interested in keeping out the enemies from your main turf or that is simply not your RP then guard upkeep will become inconsequential for you.
But if they are your preferred activities, there will be a market for that. Then they become consequential.
Comments
@Ilyos not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's my feedback on the economy system.
You can probably make a few marks from mining PMOs, but at least to me it's not remotely worthwhile. Your profits from selling finished goods like ship supplies are higher and require less tedium. On the other hand, any no-brain autofactory specialist can go and buy products available on the market (especially sensors and arrays) and turn those around through PMOs for serious $$$, Every. Single. Day. Other than potentially having factories that establish the manufacturing infrastructure, those individuals actively contribute nothing to the market and are incentivized to remove economic supply for personal profit with minimal effort. Nothing against those people, just saying that right now it's too good and is not a positive for the economy.
The Kool-Aid:
1. Starmourn is a space game.
2. In a space game there has to be lots of empty spaces, so going from point A to B is pretty much what you should do in space with a space-ship.
3. This existence of empty space gives the feeling of vastness.
4. In different space games there are players who are merely interested in finding the profitable minerals and mining them, continually. In a sense it is no different then continuously bashing mobs hour after hour. So calling miners that they are "watching paint dry" is no different then a PvPer calling a pure RPer useless or a RPer calling a PvPer a PvP ape. It is not your taste, it might be someone else's.
Now onto those stated points:
1. The economy is exclusive for the space crowd, and not everyone enjoys space, especially long-distance flights.
Saying economy is exclusive to the space crowd is an exaggerated statement because economy does not consist of space materials alone. Furthermore that statement deliberately ignores the involvement of policy makers, demand creators and PvPers and hackers. Cosmpiercers are also can be started by space crowd but can only be completed by ground crowd efficiently. They are part of the economy.
* Adding strict resources to the ground would take away from people who are already going out on their ships for resources. You have already Wilderness mechanic to acquire resources by ground activity. And you can convert Cosmpiercer credits to resources which is an activity only can be completed by ground people, especially Hackers. Also if you want the best yield from a refinery raid you will want to hack the refinery giving more importance to Hacking.
* You mentioned voidgate permit. It was the worst idea ever as a promo artifact that impacted one of the most important mark sinks negatively but since it is $$ for advantage and part of IRE business so there is really nothing else to say. But possibly an idea would be providing Wormhole Generators that can use raw materials as fuel that will allow you faster travel to zones. Also that can be a choice between Wormhole Generator or Skipdrive. Or Wild Wormholes that will lead to random places in the galaxy but they might expire over time.
* Actually whenever people explore around, they tip people about places with abundant gases or asteroids. Why reduce interactivity by adding more NPC-aid? Though random encounters on space would be decent, there is no doubt.
2. There is not a whole lot of apparent incentive to participate in the economy, especially for those who want to do so casually.
The keyword in this sentence is "casually". When you do something "casually" that means you are not really giving it much thought at all and you do when it is on your path. Like PvPing casually means that you simply tag along and do interrupts or damage for your main PvPers to capitalize upon or PvEing casually that you go around and kill mobs whenever it strikes your fancy, you really do not care about time-to-kill times or efficiency of rotations. So for mining it would mean, while going to somewhere with your ship you see a big nice iriil cloud and deploy scoops at hand and move on. If you are strictly looking for profitable materials to sell or for your production needs while trying to increase your efficiency that means you are not doing it "casually".
Now that is out of the way, let us build upon that. You are practically saying that achieving a working economy requires investment. It is really not too different then to become a great PvPer you should invest a lot of time into coding and understanding mechanics. And it is not too different then to become a successful politician you will have to connect with people and gain their support. They all require investment. And if you truly made an investment in RL financially you will know it is not really fun process. Because "investment" itself means to commit marks, time, effort, resources in order to earn profits in return. That return might never happen if you misread the current economical climate, your time might be lost due to wrong decisions and much efforts can go to waste. If everyone successfully and abundantly pushes goods and materials into the gameworld, with minimal investment then that impacts economy negatively. This tedious activity and time essentially prevents people from flooding the markets and causing a profitability issue.
Also ignoring guards and station missions are really up to your choice. For example, the free repair advantage truly saved me tons of repairkit usage after returning from an unlucky incursion. Guards give Ascendancy a reason to keep the RP of law and order while they might not have a point for other factions. And if someone kills them, they create jobs for our PvPers and of course keep them out of our turf. And on top of that they keep the demand for the miners. But I do agree on the fact that we need more reasons to crack the whip on the miners and industrialists which in turn will give us more reason to reward them.
Economy is itself about gaining money. So saying marks alone is not incentive enough...hmm...tell me why people PvE when currently they are not gaining XP? To...gain marks. When players make mining profitable, the reason to mine would be gaining marks right? Then use those marks to get ships, goods, credits etc. You can say there are not enough mark sinks and that is all about it. If there are not enough mark sinks then marks will be inflated.
3. There should be parity in personal market orders.
Sounds like the problem is with the greed in industrialists rather then the system itself. If industrialists cannot find materials to buy from the market how are they going to get those returns? Unless there are NPCs selling cheap resources, that I do not know about or if they are not doing mining themselves which is fair game. So claiming they can simply buy out from the market and do ridiculous profits is a bit circumstantial.
Regardless people should be selling their goods to other people not to NPCs which will increase the inflation in marks. When the marks start to circulate that is the time when you have a proper economy. Too much marks introduced by the NPCs only negatively impacts the system. Currently we are trying to circulate marks in Celestine Ascendancy back and forth. Yes it is an investment. And in every economy investments are made. Your solution to increase PMOs across the board would even make things worse regarding the circulation of goods and marks.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
But being a casual player and being knee-deep in economy mechanics are two entirely different things.
I remember how the discussions and suggestions done for Cosmpiercers with the claim that would lower the participation barrier and difficulty turned out in the end. A long gap of inactivity on that part! Again, I make my warnings against making things way too easy and taking something balanced and imbalancing it.
But if we think this is Skyrim, not Starmourn. Be my guest.
Something I don't recall ever being brought up is the fact that the economy is exclusive in more ways than @Azlyn mentioned. It's not only the production side, it's every single thing about the economy. All manufactured items are necessary only for those who are otherwise engaged in space activities - scoops, tethers, probes for gathering, batteries, astromechs, etc. for those who take part in space combat. I don't really know what could be changed to player-made but as it currently stands I have zero reason to engage in any part of the economy except by choice. Even when I do choose to fly somewhere to hunt or whatever rather than gatehop, it's so easy to avoid incursions and compiercers that I haven't bought any supplies in RL months. So I think that, if there were a way to incentivize (without being detrimental to) non-spacers to take part in the consumption side (as well as production) it would be a boon.
But this thread isn't about cosmpiercers, and it shouldn't be about defending very basic systems that cater to a very particular playstyle, either. This game is still in beta, and the economic system is very much still in its infancy. There is so much room for improvement, and I've seen a lot of good ideas in this thread that would contribute to its development. If there are actual reasons that someone thinks each individual idea is bad, they should absolutely expound upon those views with solid evidence, but explaining to people that they're playing the game wrong and that that's why they're not enjoying themselves is extremely frustrating and continually derails the thread from actual discussion of sorely needed advancements to the system.
@Rhindara
The whole thread continued with the claims that:
1. Mining possess initial barriers.
2. Mining is not profitable compared to other two specializations.
3. Economy does not work.
I have explained clearly, by taking my time all of those claims were not valid. I have told successful examples, pointed towards overabundance of resources the factions possess. And then I have also pointed out several alternative ways to acquire those elusive and tedious resources.
We all agree that advancements can and will be done. For example, such as random encounters on spaceflight is a good idea. But injecting more NPC orders and detaching the player interactivity further is not.
So tell me, what further solid evidence you need other then showing in the game that we could build a profitable production-consumption cycle? I think disregarding the current successful examples and trying to change the system until you will think you are quite successful is counter-productive to the game on the whole.
That is an absolutely valid claim. You have forsaken that barrier by way of contributing to an isolated economic cycle, but the barrier is still there. If I came to play the game for the economy, I'd bounce in 3 days, having spent 300% of the marks I had earned (since I'm spending marks I'm being given for nothing) without having made a single mark of profit. I'd be burned out, frustrated, and bored. Or: I'd feel the exact same way I have every time I've tried to get into Starmourn's economy so far. Yeah, there are workarounds, but the problem still exists that a newbie can't come and play the game for one of its main draws without significant social interaction (compared to the other two).
Disclaimer: Duh, roleplaying is important and duh roleplaying involves social interaction, but there is more to RP than just fluffy unicorn happy trade deals. Imagine wanting to play a space trucker with a shitty attitude and finding out it's fundamentally impossible without also being a genocidal maniac... now you're just a trope.
ETA: Or "it isn't fun", which is the main problem (outside of the very specific situation "capitalist debt" you have crafted)
So if you want to play an anti-social space trucker who will not do business with the literally rich corporations and job-creators, then sure...do not expect to roll in marks. Complete your NPC orders, do your RP and enjoy your time. Let the gears of economy work. You know to call an economy a player economy you gotta involve players in the equation!
I think you are reaching for straws by now.
But yeah, I almost suggested getting rid of PMOs entirely, because I don't really get their purpose in the grand scheme. But maybe they're okay to have until the economy is actually chugging along.
Nope. Not going to accept that shade. The onus is definitely not on faction leadership to make a game system work.
I will not get into much detailed specifics or arguments anymore because I am slightly burned out by the discussion. But the whole resource and mark deposits can be tracked on the faction logs and you can see clearly which participant broke the bank each cycle because Ata's reports and attention to detail are excellent. BOB-level excellent. Furthermore this system is not my creation since I RP the military corporate Jin, who is generally tasked to incentivize mayhem and destruction.
Also initially mining was never my thing and I generally prefer to crunch numbers from afar; yet to get a better grasp of the system created by the fellow players, I went on a mining drive several times which was not any less fun then bashing or incursions. It was just an activity like any other as far as fun goes. But I understand tastes differ. In the end that made me appreciate the system further. If I am voyaging around and see a cloud, I will definitely bag it. We always try to adopt the mentality that if a system becomes too much of a burden on anyone, we should just scrap it for something better.
And it is truth that we are currently the least populated faction in raw numbers, but the things our people come up with to increase efficiency to make up for that really amazes me and as a player makes me proud to play in CA. Like all systems one day our current system might come to a halt for whatever reason, but then it will be the time for Guardian Executive and Guardian Council to find a solution.
I can't provide any data, but I'll chime in with my own impressions, because I never really expected to get too into space gathering and manufacturing. However, with the changes to how comms spawn according to economy, I really enjoy mining these days. It's nice to be able to look at my current cargo (please please please add location and type filters) and say, "I need some iriil today," and know where I can go to find it.
Despite my own enjoyment, though, I don't have the time to do a lot of mining. Especially when I also want to haul intermediary products out to factories in the more remote subsecs or do some incursions. So, I have several high-paying market buy orders (as in, x3 or more for high-use gas).
I think that's probably okay? I imagine this is kind of what the system is trying to drive towards, and might even be why the autofactory PMOs are so broken? (I don't know about that, they seem egregious, but it's a thought. Like, shove marks into people at the end so they have enough that they're okay with buying base comms at higher prices?) Though with faction programs probably a decent portion of comms are staying within the faction, so the general market doesn't see them.
And it definitely wouldn't be okay if we had zero dedicated miners, but my orders do get picked up fairly regularly (I don't think there's been a day when some resources haven't been delivered), so there is at least one person making money out there.
To be fair, I...don't really care that much about making big money. Probably if I wanted to maximize profit, I wouldn't have such high buy orders. Though to that, even my highest buy order prices still allow a decent profit margin if I did try to sell, but actually moving produced goods on the market via offers or orders isn't really a priority for me. I just like being able to make stuff and use the stuff I make.
Maybe if factions could create orders, and arrange to pay out more if the order was fulfilled by a faction member? That would be neat.
I understand CA seems to be essentially doing this, but, well, there's a limited number of people who find joy in that kind of bookkeeping, and honestly it's likely they gravitated naturally toward CA. Faction-created orders would allow the same thing, but without the need for a personal accountant. Or at least, it would greatly reduce the manual work an accountant would have to do.
Also, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I can absolutely ignore the whole space economy and nothing about my game changes. That's how broken it is: it's inconsequential. There is nothing about it that I want
And beforr you pull out the next station mission mechanic, I will stop you right there and say that made things needed negatively, not wanted positively.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
And in a game pretty much a character can ignore many things depending on the playstyle. That is not an indicator of something being inconsequential or broken. If you are playing a performer who regularly performs and built up a RP revolving around that, you really do not care about which ship is hauling nanoplastic, what are the fluctuations on vandium prices or where is a pirate autofactory producing unlicensed processors etc. Of course positive use cases would be addition of tradeskills such as furnitures or sculpting that will use the commodities produced in the economy. You are not interested in putting a nanoplastic or paristeel statue of yourself or such arts are not your cup of tea? You do not care about designing or buying physical furniture that other players can probe and interact in myriad of ways? Then it will be again inconsequential. Similarly, if you are not interested in keeping out the enemies from your main turf or that is simply not your RP then guard upkeep will become inconsequential for you.
But if they are your preferred activities, there will be a market for that. Then they become consequential.